[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

[Emily's Cat]

More insights into the rift at the UK offices of The Guardian over how to cover trans issues.



https://eoinhiggins.substack.com/p/the-guardians-censoring-of-judith

Hmm. Thats... an interesting take.

The question that Gleeson asked was specifically about Wi Spa, and Butler's response was a screed about how TERFs are allying with the right wing and being fascists.

It got edited out entirely... because the accused individual at Wi Spa is now facing five felony counts of indecent exposure, on top of several prior felony indecent exposure convictions, and is a registered sex offender.

I'd much rather the Guardian had let the Q&A stand, as do every other gender-atheist female I know - it highlights the conflict rather well. It makes it blatantly obvious that there IS a conflict between transgender privileges and female rights, in that female spa-goers and their children were exposed to a sex offender as a direct result of self-declaration being the arbiter of sex... and then those female victims were called fascists, TERFs, transphobes, and subjected to abuse.

The Guardian edited the Q & A because even for them, flat out blaming the victims of a registered sex offender was just a step too far.

 

[Emily's Cat]

https://eoinhiggins.substack.com/p/the-guardians-censoring-of-judith

I'm going to add that your source here doesn't seem particularly objective or unbiased. They refer to this article by The Guardian, which lays out the views of both trans activists and feminist groups while denigrating neither in any way at all as a "transphobic attack on trans rights".

 

[Horhang]

Just leaving this here for comment. I as a male would find it offensive if men were to be substituted for ejaculators. Note she almost says women and corrects herself.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics...as-abbott-abortion-ban-ac360-intv-sot-vpx.cnn

 

[Matthew Best]

I can't help wondering, if Governor Abbott has some way of clearing the streets of Texas of all rapists, he hasn't done so already.

Other than that, AOC is fantastic isn't she?

 

[Distracted1]

Just leaving this here for comment. I as a male would find it offensive if men were to be substituted for ejaculators. Note she almost says women and corrects herself.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics...as-abbott-abortion-ban-ac360-intv-sot-vpx.cnn

She recovers nicely, however, with her "Biology 101" lecture.

 

[Earthborn]

The first two occur if and only if the transwoman in question takes cross-sex hormones.

Which is very often true of individuals known to be trans.

And since hormone treatment is not required to be considered transgender under the new criteria of self-declaration only...

Just because someone is transgender does not necessarily mean they are a transwoman.

So let me be more clear: What characteristics are shared by pre/non-op, pre/non-HRT transwoman and females, and which are NOT shared by pre/non-op, pre/non-HRT transwomen and males?

The term "transwoman" implies that the person involved is in some sense a "woman", they have taken some steps to transition.
It does not usually include persons with a feminine gender identity who remain closeted. When deciding who goes in which prison, we are talking about individuals who are known to be trans.

Relatively effeminate males are also at risk of being raped (by males, mind you) when thrown into a male prison.

Which just shows that segregation based on biological sex isn't really a solution to anything. Just fix your prison system first.

 

[Earthborn]

I don't know how many times I've said this, and in how many different ways: It is not transgender people that are a problem, it is SELF-DECLARED GENDER IDENTITY AS THE SOLE ARBITER that is the problem.

I don't think anyone has argued that self-declared gender identity should be the sole arbiter for all situations.

 

[Ziggurat]

I don't think anyone has argued that self-declared gender identity should be the sole arbiter for all situations.

No, that is exactly what Boudica99 has argued, quite explicitly. Several others have been remarkably vague about what criteria other than self-identification they would be willing to accept.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

No, that is exactly what Boudica99 has argued, quite explicitly. Several others have been remarkably vague about what criteria other than self-identification they would be willing to accept.

Canada essentially has self-ID. As there any data to show this has been a disaster there?

 

[Earthborn]

No, that is exactly what Boudica99 has argued, quite explicitly.

Provide quotes.

 

[Ziggurat]

Which is very often true of individuals known to be trans.

Often, but not universally.

Just because someone is transgender does not necessarily mean they are a transwoman.

True. But we aren't debating transmen having access to male-exclusive spaces. Nobody is worried about that. There's a reason, and it isn't transphobia.

The term "transwoman" implies that the person involved is in some sense a "woman", they have taken some steps to transition.

These steps can be as trivial as growing their hair long and adopting a female name.

When deciding who goes in which prison, we are talking about individuals who are known to be trans.

That doesn't mean anything.

Which just shows that segregation based on biological sex isn't really a solution to anything. Just fix your prison system first.

This is a semantic quibble about what it means to "solve" something. Some problems can never be solved, only managed. Criminality is one of them. Prison, and sex-based segregation of prison, is part of how we manage the problem of criminality. Abandoning the sex segregation component of that is unlikely to improve anything. And "solving" our prison system is quite beyond the scope of this thread.

 

[Earthborn]

Canada essentially has self-ID.

For deciding whether someone wants to have an M or an F on their identity card. I don't think that counts as "all situations". I am sure Canadian prisons, sports organisations, abuse shelters can still use additional criteria.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Provide quotes.

No. The thread is still here, use the search function.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I remain amazed of the growing gap between what the "I support the Trans people, I've lived among them, you could even call me the Transwhisperer" people are saying Trans people want/are saying and what actual Transpeople say they want.

Remember Boudica99 called SuburbanTurkey a transphobe.

 

[Ziggurat]

Canada essentially has self-ID. As there any data to show this has been a disaster there?

Time will tell. It's already been exploited, though.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Time will tell. It's already been exploited, though.

How much time will tell? It's been years. I was promised the end of Western Civilization. Bring on the gender berserkers already.

 

[Ziggurat]

Provide quotes.

I have to confess, I made a mistake. The correct user name is Boudicca90, not Boudica99. Sorry.

Anyways, you could have, as Joe suggested, simply searched the thread. I'll do you a favor this time, though, to make up for getting the name wrong. Here's but one example:

Nope, surgery or hormones aren't necessary to transition and shouldn't be. We all have our own transition goals and that's why I support Self ID, because transitioning isn't always the same for everybody and people shouldn't have to medically or surgically transition if they don't want to. Like me retaining my penis doesn't make me any less of a woman. A woman can have a penis and a man can have a vagina.

Self ID means that "self-declared gender identity should be the sole arbiter for all situations". Declare that you're trans, and you have to be recognized as trans.

 

[Ziggurat]

Bring on the gender berserkers already.

OK.

 

[Meadmaker]

How much time will tell? It's been years. I was promised the end of Western Civilization. Bring on the gender berserkers already.

If it hasn't affected me, I don't care.

You have been given example after example of people affected, whether it's girls losing races, women raped in Canadian shelters or California prisons, swim teams who don't want to take off their clothes.

But none of them affect you. The rapes aren't your fault and the whiny girls are just TERFs anyway.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

If it hasn't affected me, I don't care.

You have been given example after example of people affected, whether it's girls losing races, women raped in Canadian shelters or California prisons, swim teams who don't want to take off their clothes.

But none of them affect you. The rapes aren't your fault and the whiny girls are just TERFs anyway.

The plural of anecdote is not data.

The whole "trans crime of the day" bit is very tired. Reminiscent of white supremacists who love to pluck outrageous stories of "black crime" in their campaign of bigotry.