theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)
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TurkeysGhost
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I'm happy to leave this mountain in peace if you'll stop this childish refusal to see the point of an analogy. Discriminating based on protected classes like race or gender identity is something that often does not pass moral or legal muster.
The Atheist
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It's why I'm now only an infrequent visitor to the thread.
Same; I've already been labelled a TERF, which is also hilarious to me, when I have:
A - donated considerable time to assist trans with employment outside of sex work.
B - proudly and openly dated trans women.
And people wonder why forums died off.
Ziggurat
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But it often does. And in particular, you aren't actually contesting that discriminating on the basis of sex in prison passes both legal and moral muster.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Sex and gender are different. Sex discrimination in prisons is legal. I'm not "refusing" to see your point here. I simply do not see it.
Earthborn
Terrestrial Intelligence
58008. Also hormone levels. And risk of being raped when thrown in a men's prison that fails to ensure inmates' safety.
TurkeysGhost
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The point is that ignoring the extreme risks that such a policy places trans people in is immoral, and is likely illegal in places that recognize gender-identity as a protected class characteristic.
The state would have to do something to mitigate this unusual risk. Even in our barbaric prison system, it's hard to imagine such willful indifference to prisoner safety would pass muster
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d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
Nearly everyone is at risk of physical and sexual assault "when thrown in a men's prison that fails to ensure inmates' safety." People who went through male puberty have a better chance of defending themselves, however.
Ziggurat
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Fat men have boobs. And not all transwomen get implants.
Not all transwomen go on hormone therapy.
What is the risk? Are there any actual statistics? Or is this just speculation? It's not unreasonable speculation, but has it actually been demonstrated? I wouldn't be surprised if it has, but I haven't actually seen any yet.
I don't think anyone here wants to ignore that risk. And I don't think anyone here opposes taking steps to significantly mitigate that risk (such as, for example, separate housing for transwomen prisoners). The opposition seems to be just towards one specific solution, which places females at increased risk.
Earthborn
Terrestrial Intelligence
What I know about prisons in the US comes from watching prison documentaries, which just makes me shake my head in disbelief over how ridiculously ineffective those prisons are. It seems to me that they are effectively race segregated, and the lives of the prisoners is mainly ruled by race based gangs prisoners have to join for their own safety -- as gang wars in prison are common -- even if they don't particularly want to.
US prisons are segregated on the basis of sex, class, race, threat level... At some point someone has to notice how fine-grained the segregation has to be to keep some semblance of security and come up with "what if we just keep all dangerous people from all the other dangerous people, so that they don't constantly have to fear all the dangerous people..."
TurkeysGhost
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Much of this segregation is done by security levels. Someone doing time for check fraud isn't going to high security prisons where the most violent are kept.
It's worth pointing out that a lot of incarceration is short timers and pre-trial detention happening at local jails, which may not have this level of organization.
Meadmaker
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This really emphasizes something that has been a theme in your recent posts. If we were only discussing people who had medical transitions, then we would be having a completely different conversation.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Hormone levels are artificially induced after the fact. Transwomen don't have that in common with women. And men also risk being raped in prison, that's not something unique to women.
Unlike the other two, the boobs argument is not even wrong, just stupid.
Manger Douse
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Was the loving you and the other male made heterosexual or homosexual loving, because if it was the latter you're in a whole lot of trouble
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
If we respect the gender/sex distinction, then it has to be homosexual, right? Unless the sex in homosexual is different from sex-sex.
I've said before that people who have, are in the process, or intend to transition make absolutely perfect sense.
It's just the "Self Identity = My God the Alpha and the Omega, Creator of All Reality" people I don't get.
But again my issue for about 5 threads now has been the "Transgender Supporters" say one thing, then actual Transgender people saying multiple other things, none of which actually work together.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
The first two occur if and only if the transwoman in question takes cross-sex hormones. And since hormone treatment is not required to be considered transgender under the new criteria of self-declaration only... I don't think the first two items hold any water.
Relatively effeminate males are also at risk of being raped (by males, mind you) when thrown into a male prison. That doesn't make them transgender, and it also fails to be a criteria for which transwomen are more like females than they are like males.
So let me be more clear: What characteristics are shared by pre/non-op, pre/non-HRT transwoman and females, and which are NOT shared by pre/non-op, pre/non-HRT transwomen and males?
The claim has repeatedly been made that transwomen are 'more like' females than they are like males. I think this is a false assertion. To date, no logical criteria has been presented that makes me thing that Eddie Izzard is objectively more like Mia Farrow than they are like Daniel Craig. Nor to make me think that Alex Drummond is more like Clair Danes than they are like Mandy Patinkin.
For that matter, I fail to see how Juno-era Elleniot Page was more like Michael Cera than like Vanessa Loring.
//Semi-snark but semi-actually making a point.//
Then much like sports aren't we talking "weight class" making for more logical segregation than gender/sex?
Not to be funny but couldn't we accomplish (as much) of what we're talking about by just putting all the weak people in one prison and all the strong ones in another?
Wouldn't that achieve the spirt of what both SuburbanTurkey and EmilyCat want?
Then much like sports aren't we talking "weight class" making for more logical segregation than gender/sex?
Not to be funny but couldn't we accomplish (as much) of what we're talking about by just putting all the weak people in one prison and all the strong ones in another?
Wouldn't that achieve the spirt of what both SuburbanTurkey and EmilyCat want?
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Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Why is it NOT immoral to ignore the extreme risks that your proposed policies place females in?
I don't believe I have seen you express even the smallest modicum of concern or compassion for females in this thread. Mostly, I've seen blatant disregard for females, coupled with periodic degrading language and insults directed toward any females that fail to place the desires and feelings of transgender identified males above their own well being.
TurkeysGhost
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Segregating by violence is a pretty common and reasonable approach to prison safety. It's not a perfect system, and there's still legit human rights concerns about just creating a thunderdome for our worst offenders, but it at least sorts people by something non-prejudicial.
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