The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-Opened

[Andy_Ross]

The JAIC said the cargo was properly lashed in accordance with the weather conditions.

Okaaaay. The lorries and cars started jamming together at the stroke of Swedish midnight and at the same time all signals were lost for the duration of the sinking.

The vehicles would have started moving when the car deck flooded and the ship rolled.
That would be after the visor failed.

 

[Andy_Ross]

If you heard bangs, that might be different in quality than banging, suggesting DIY.

But bangs are explosions, you said so.

 

[Andy_Ross]

And nobody calls Big Ben chimes a bang. More of a BONG!

Of course, that's what it is designed to do.The point is the hammer has much less mass than the bell and my neighbour's hammer has much less mass than his wall.

 

[phiwum]

A bang is a bang IMV, and not a thud, a slam or a loud noise.

Yes, a bang is a bang.

But the question is whether a bang is an explosion. Sure, some are, but you keep saying that people who reported bangs really meant explosion.

(A bang, by the way, is also a loud noise, but not all loud noises are bangs.)

 

[phiwum]

Nobody but nobody calls it a 'bang' unless they are attributing it to the wind.

Whatever. You were saying that the noise couldn't be caused by the bow visor and then brought up a silly bus analogy. My point is that relative sizes of stuff has nothing to do with loudness of the noise.

Whether or not there is an English idiosyncrasy regarding the relation of the word "door" and the word "bang" really has not a damned thing to do with anything. I mean, it really was a novel grasp at a straw, but that's all.

 

[phiwum]

According to Ilta-Sanomat it describes survivors as reporting a 'pamaus' ['bang']- the Finnish derived word from the sound PAM ( 'P' is like a 'B' sound in Finnish) so BAM. An explosion is räjähdys, and both words can be made into verbs. There is no indication that the survivors were talking about anything other than a sudden alarming noise that sounded like an explosion and not just a loud noise, albeit they didn't actually see one so it may have been caused by something of the same visceral intensity as an explosion.

Nothing you said above supports the highlighted. Like English, Finnish has one word for "bang" and one for "explosion". This suggests that not every use of the word for "bang" is meant to convey the word for explosion.

But maybe I'm wrong. You'll have to cite some actual expert that every single time a Finn uses the word "pamaus", they are referring to a sound like an explosion.

And then you'll have to explain all the "metal on metal" bangs found in the summaries, 'cause I don't know what the hell a metal on metal explosion sounds like.

There have been case of ships experiencing an explosion after water got into the ventilator system. However, the JAIC never looked at the Estonia ventilators, even though divers were sent down there more than once.

Yeah, whatever.

You still have to provide a real argument that, at least in Finnish, every time the word corresponding to "bang" is used, they really mean a sound caused by an explosion. Because you've decided to interpret every use of bang as "explosion".

 

[phiwum]

We do not hear Big Ben banging, do we?

(Maybe with Big Benjamina we might...)

So the **** what?

Is your claim something like this?

A relatively small thing hitting a relatively large thing can make a really loud noise, but never a bang, no sir. So if someone says they heard a bang and the predominant theory involves a relatively small thing separating from a large thing, then they mean an explosion, you betcha!

Is that what we're going with today?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I guess we're never going to solve this until we have a database of words for loud noises, which cross references terminology used with timbre, volume and circumstance, and works across several languages.

 

[Steve]

Lots of travelling down some bizarre garden paths in this thread. Too may totally irrelevant discussions distracting from the facts of the event. Almost seems that it is an intentional clouding of opinions that have no actual supporting evidence.

 

[JayUtah]

The 'null hypothesis' is the scientific method, as popularised by Popper (no pun intended)...

No.

What Karl Popper popularized was the hypothetico-deductive model of scientific inquiry, which isn't the only model to which one can apply the label "scientific method." In this model, observations pertaining to the unknown are collected. Then a hypothesis (or originally, several) is formulated to explain the observations. The consequences of that explanation (or originally, the individually distinct consequences for each candidate explanation) are deduced, and then an experiment is formulated to attempt to observe which consequences arise, and therefore which hypothesis is the most likely antecedent.

The null hypothesis arises when we note that the consequences we seek to observe may also arise by chance or by other means for which we cannot control, but more practically when good hypothesis sets evade formulation. A null hypothesis is the statement that chance alone governs the consequences, and is not attached to any one hypothesis. Thus a statistical model must direct the correlation of the consequent to the variable over and above chance. This is an adjustment to hypothetico-deductivism, which originally formulated contrasting hypotheses among well-behaved consequents. It was Thomas Kuhn, not Popper, who is most commonly credited with this adjustment. Falsification of the null by the establishment of statistical significance in the observation of consequences, to a predetermined level (generally p < 0.05), achieves support for the particular experimental hypothesis under test. But one can -- in theory -- apply Popper's method without requiring inferential statistics.

Saying, "The 'null hypothesis' is the scientific method," is gibberish.

...and which is how one should conduct any scientific experiment.

...you say from your vast training and experience as a practicing scientist.

 

[JayUtah]

Lots of travelling down some bizarre garden paths in this thread. Too may totally irrelevant discussions distracting from the facts of the event. Almost seems that it is an intentional clouding of opinions that have no actual supporting evidence.

The purpose of a conspiracy theory is not to arrive at an answer, but to keep the questions so bogged down in irrelevant controversies that they can be debated forever and support the ongoing relevance of the theorist.

 

[Steve]

The purpose of a conspiracy theory is not to arrive at an answer, but to keep the questions so bogged down in irrelevant controversies that they can be debated forever and support the ongoing relevance of the theorist.

Of course. And it tends to work when others allow it to get bogged down with pages and pages devoted to such things as discussion of the intricate and irrelevant details of "bangs".

 

[Axxman300]

Of course. And it tends to work when others allow it to get bogged down with pages and pages devoted to such things as discussion of the intricate and irrelevant details of "bangs".

Just an exercise in perusing how badly someone wants a CT to be true.

You could write a Master's thesis in the psychology of a Conspiracy Theorist with this thread alone.

 

[Spektator]

Of course. And it tends to work when others allow it to get bogged down with pages and pages devoted to such things as discussion of the intricate and irrelevant details of "bangs".

Indeed. Twenty minutes of checking British novels netted me a fine haul of non-explosive bangs.

(Mortimer Lightwood) "had entered the army and committed a capital military offence and been tried by court martial and found guilty and had arranged his affairs and been marched out to be shot, before the door banged." -Charles Dickens, Our Mutual Friend.

"Soon afterwards, came a slamming and banging of doors; and then came running down stairs, a gentleman with whiskers..." -Charles Dickens, Our Mutual Friend. These were inside doors, not susceptible to the wind.

"‘I’m sure ye did,’ replied the red-headed man, with a grin which agitated his countenance from one auricular organ to the other. Saying which he turned into the house and banged the door after him." -Charles Dickens, The Pickwick Papers.

"As I sat nursing these reflections, the casement behind me was banged on to the floor by a blow from the latter individual, and his black countenance looked blightingly through." - Emily Brontë, Wuthering Heights.

"He tugged hard at his beard, and went and shut himself up in the library with a bang of the door that had a world of meaning in it." - Wilkie Collins, The Moonstone.

"He could fancy him walking in, banging the door of Dobbin's room." - William Thackeray, Vanity Fair.

"Tuppy withdrew, banging the door behind him, and I put Jeeves abreast." - P.G. Wodehouse, Right Ho, Jeeves!

"The booms were tearing at the blocks, the rudder was banging to and fro, and the whole ship creaking, groaning, and jumping like a manufactory." Robert Louis Stevenson, Treasure Island.

""Then go home to your dinners, whoever you are; and if our children put you up to this play-acting you can tell them from me they'll catch it, so they know what to expect!" With that she did bang the door." -Edith Nesbitt, Five Children and It.

"... as for the stables, Mr. Lammeter never uses ’em—they’re out o’ all charicter—lor bless you! if you was to set the doors a-banging in ’em, it ’ud sound like thunder half o’er the parish.” - George Eliot (Mary Anne Evans), Silas Marner.

"The footman banged the door, the coachman touched his horses, Mrs. Werner put down the window and waved her hand, and Dolly returned to the small house all alone." - Charlotte Riddell, Mortomley's Estate.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Mark Bolan

"Get it on, bang a gong, get it on"

 

[Steve]

Indeed. Twenty minutes of checking British novels netted me a fine haul of non-explosive bangs.

(Mortimer Lightwood) "had entered the army and committed a capital military offence and been tried by court martial and found guilty and had arranged his affairs and been marched out to be shot, before the door banged." -Charles Dickens, Our Mutual Friend.

"Soon afterwards, came a slamming and banging of doors; and then came running down stairs, a gentleman with whiskers..." -Charles Dickens, Our Mutual Friend. These were inside doors, not susceptible to the wind.

"‘I’m sure ye did,’ replied the red-headed man, with a grin which agitated his countenance from one auricular organ to the other. Saying which he turned into the house and banged the door after him." -Charles Dickens, The Pickwick Papers.

"As I sat nursing these reflections, the casement behind me was banged on to the floor by a blow from the latter individual, and his black countenance looked blightingly through." - Emily Brontë, Wuthering Heights.

"He tugged hard at his beard, and went and shut himself up in the library with a bang of the door that had a world of meaning in it." - Wilkie Collins, The Moonstone.

"He could fancy him walking in, banging the door of Dobbin's room." - William Thackeray, Vanity Fair.

"Tuppy withdrew, banging the door behind him, and I put Jeeves abreast." - P.G. Wodehouse, Right Ho, Jeeves!

"The booms were tearing at the blocks, the rudder was banging to and fro, and the whole ship creaking, groaning, and jumping like a manufactory." Robert Louis Stevenson, Treasure Island.

""Then go home to your dinners, whoever you are; and if our children put you up to this play-acting you can tell them from me they'll catch it, so they know what to expect!" With that she did bang the door." -Edith Nesbitt, Five Children and It.

"... as for the stables, Mr. Lammeter never uses ’em—they’re out o’ all charicter—lor bless you! if you was to set the doors a-banging in ’em, it ’ud sound like thunder half o’er the parish.” - George Eliot (Mary Anne Evans), Silas Marner.

"The footman banged the door, the coachman touched his horses, Mrs. Werner put down the window and waved her hand, and Dolly returned to the small house all alone." - Charlotte Riddell, Mortomley's Estate.

Excellent work! Time well spent. Knowledge is rarely a bad thing, and our knowledge of the mechanism of the sinking of the Estonia is thus expanded.

Bang, Bang.

 

[GlennB]

Let's all stop banging on about it, eh?

 

[phiwum]

Of course. And it tends to work when others allow it to get bogged down with pages and pages devoted to such things as discussion of the intricate and irrelevant details of "bangs".

I take your point.

The reason we got into this tedious digression is simple enough. Vixen claims several witnesses reported explosions and I asked for a list of those who did. It turns out that the summaries she cited primarily used the cursed word.

The remainder was a vain attempt to show her she was drawing an unwarranted inference

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

 

[Steve]

I take your point.

The reason we got into this tedious digression is simple enough. Vixen claims several witnesses reported explosions and I asked for a list of those who did. It turns out that the summaries she cited primarily used the cursed word.

The remainder was a vain attempt to show her she was drawing an unwarranted inference

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

Oh I understand that. And I have no doubt that Vixen also knows that. Vixen is not here to learn anything, merely to maintain an entrenched CT position. Shoot one CT down, another is raised - submarines, collisions, explosions, "disappeared" crew members, ad infinitum. Comes a time to recognize when the point has been more than adequately made whether Vixen accepts it or not.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Excellent work! Time well spent.

One might even say: a bang-up job.