Why do South American Leftists Embrace Castro?

corplinx

JREF Kid
Joined
Oct 22, 2002
Messages
8,952
The Bolivians elect a leftist. Big deal. Why is it these leftists embrace Castro though? To me it automatically undermines the whole "he may be a leftist but he's democratically elected blah blah blah" thing. All of the sudden this guy isn't a simple politician anymore.

So why do these south american leftists (*cough* Chavez) always make a point of standing shoulder to shoulder with Saint Castro?

It really does baffle me.
 
I don't find it too baffling. Castro has little to actually offer besides the success of thumbing it's nose to it's gargantuan neighbor. No small feat, really. I suspect just about every country aspires to such degree of independence, even if it's value is mostly symbolic.
 
I'll repost from the duplicate thread where I made this post before:

Probably because it serves their purpose of 'standing up' to the big bullying Yankees up North. Forget that Castro has imposed a dictatorship and has wrecked the Cuban economy--he has defied, lets see, 10 US Presidents and is still hanging around (no bets if he lives to defy #11).

So he's seen as the little guy who has taken a feather out of the Big Bad Eagle, so, to borrow from anther poster, his mythos is more notable than the real facts of the story.

And the mythos is important--think George Armstrong Custer, for one example.
 
I think it's a bit self-involved to assume that Chavez is sidling up to Castro to cheese off the US. Cuba does have several things to offer Venezuela, such as a highly educated workforce. There are currently Cuban doctors running free clinics in Venezuela, as well as Cuban literacy workers and urban planners.

If he's trying to needle anyone, it more likely to be his domestic critics.
 
The thing is, Chavez is pure democrat. Most of his country is poor and he leads by mob rule essentially by appealing to everyone who isn't rich.

Castro on the other hand is a dictator.

Bolivia has freely elected a leftist and the first thing he does is fly to hug a dictator.

It makes a brave statement to stand next to a dictator hand-in-hand, but I am not sure they realize its the statement they think is being made.
 
The US has been chums with many dictators and thugs over the years. A lot of times, it plays well with the people.

Giving the US the finger plays well almost everywhere around the globe. My guess its that it's a way to get a good cheer from the masses, kinda like when the president says he favors a anti flag burning amendment here. A easy way to do that is to play pals with Cuba, and you might even get a useful thing or two from the relationship, as mumblethrax points out.

I don't find it all that difficult to get my head around the concept.
 
Forget that Castro has imposed a dictatorship and has wrecked the Cuban economy--he has defied, lets see, 10 US Presidents and is still hanging around (no bets if he lives to defy #11).

You know, lots of people might say that its actually the US embargo that has wrecked Cuba's economy....
 
Last edited:
You know, lots of people might say that its actually the US embargo that has wrecked Cuba's economy....

And the centralized control hasn't done its share?

I think there's enough wreckage to go around on this one.
 
And the centralized control hasn't done its share?

I think there's enough wreckage to go around on this one.
It probably has, but the argument can still be made that the embargo forced Cuba to rely on the Soviet Union, and that their economic policy was therefore more Soviet than it might have been if we had instead engaged Castro economically.
 
You know, lots of people might say that its actually the US embargo that has wrecked Cuba's economy....

They don't have an embargo from Europe, Canada, or Latin America, so I can't see how that's really the fundamental problem. Rather, what does Cuba actually produce that the world would want to buy? Cigars do not an economy make. Their biggest export seems to be sugar, but it's not US embargoes which are distorting sugar trade, it's primarily subsidies and import quotas which Europe engages in just as much as we do. Add on top of that a command economy (which has never produced anything that could be called a success) and I think it's hard to place primary blame on the US.
 
Forget that Castro has imposed a dictatorship and has wrecked the Cuban economy ...
Castro followed Batista, another dictator and much more unsavoury; the economy was the Batista economy, gangster-friendly and bad enough to provoke a popular uprising that overthrew his regime. The modern Cuban economy is hardly the wreckage of that.

--he has defied, lets see, 10 US Presidents and is still hanging around (no bets if he lives to defy #11).
There's a century-long tradition of Cubans snubbing the US. The Castro regime has outperformed most Central American economies - the logical comparison to make - measured by the median standard-of-living, rather than by GDP, most of which goes to a tiny minority. And it's been no more dictatorial than, say, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua under the Samozas - none subject to US embargo, in fact recipients of US largesse. Only since the Fall of the Wall has democracy begun to establish itself there, just as in Eastern Europe.

So he's seen as the little guy who has taken a feather out of the Big Bad Eagle, so, to borrow from anther poster, his mythos is more notable than the real facts of the story.

And the mythos is important--think George Armstrong Custer, for one example.
True enough, but since Central America has failed to produce mass literacy the common people can't get the facts, they have to depend on myth. The Cuban doctors and teachers they're seeing in Venezuela - and that have been seen in Angola and Nicaragua in the past - are not mythical. The Yankee myth of "Capitalism = Freedom and Opportunity" hasn't provided such hard evidence since the 60's.
 
They don't have an embargo from Europe, Canada, or Latin America, so I can't see how that's really the fundamental problem. Rather, what does Cuba actually produce that the world would want to buy? Cigars do not an economy make. Their biggest export seems to be sugar, but it's not US embargoes which are distorting sugar trade, it's primarily subsidies and import quotas which Europe engages in just as much as we do. Add on top of that a command economy (which has never produced anything that could be called a success) and I think it's hard to place primary blame on the US.
The US market - a large one, in world-terms - is the natural outlet for Cuba; far-off Europe or Canada are not comparable. I would expect there'd be a market for Cuban food in Florida, at the very least, but Walmart won't stock it. And the Cuban cigar market in the US is anybody's guess, since it's illegal.

My broadband's playing up - NTL crock-of-wossname - so I'll have to check out Venezuela's exports at some other point. Absent the command economy, perhaps there's more than oil.

And what does Columbia produce, apart from wood-pulp? When your broadband starts running like a duck you realise how much you've come to rely on it. It's a little bit disconcerting.
 
The US market - a large one, in world-terms - is the natural outlet for Cuba; far-off Europe or Canada are not comparable.

Sure, trading with America would be quite natural, but distance/trade isn't quite so simple:
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cu.html#Econ
Their largest export destination is actually the Netherlands, of all places, which isn't even the closest European country. So it's not just about proximity. Oh, and Canada is actually the number two export destination.

My broadband's playing up - NTL crock-of-wossname - so I'll have to check out Venezuela's exports at some other point. Absent the command economy, perhaps there's more than oil.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ve.html#Econ
This doesn't give a complete breakdown, but mining seems to be the second largest export industry after oil.

And what does Columbia produce, apart from wood-pulp? When your broadband starts running like a duck you realise how much you've come to rely on it. It's a little bit disconcerting.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/co.html#Econ
Their main (legal) exports are "petroleum, coffee, coal, apparel, bananas, cut flowers". I'm not sure where in that list cocaine would fit.
 
Sure, trading with America would be quite natural, but distance/trade isn't quite so simple:
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cu.html#Econ
Their largest export destination is actually the Netherlands, of all places, which isn't even the closest European country. So it's not just about proximity. Oh, and Canada is actually the number two export destination.
You're begging the question here. When presented with an argument that Cuba's natural trading partner is the US but that they are prevented from significantly engaging in trade by the embargo and that this impedes their economic development you say yes, but their largest current trading partner is in Europe so it's not such a big problem.

If we were to drop the embargo and Castro were to soften his stance towards the US a bit, the US would soon dominate trade with Cuba again. Prior to the embargo, nearly 70% of Cuba's trade was with the US.

Apart from trade, we're overlooking one of the most important things the US has to offer Cuba, and that's tourism. It's a vital sector of Cuba's economy these days (as it once was), and is almost single-handedly responsible for pulling Cuba out of the Special Period.
 
Last edited:
You're begging the question here. When presented with an argument that Cuba's natural trading partner is the US but that they are prevented from significantly engaging in trade by the embargo and that this impedes their economic development you say yes, but their largest current trading partner is in Europe so it's not such a big problem.

Well, let's get a little more precise. I was presented a CLAIM that the US was Cuba's natural trading partner, not an argument. My point about the Netherlands is that proximity alone does not indicate natural trade partnership, because such an arrangement should favor nearer European countries over farther ones, and that's not the case. A natural trade partnership would depend on Cuba offering the US good that the US wanted to buy at attractive prices. Cuba does not, for example, export much sugar to other sugar producing countries nearby. An ARGUMENT that the US is Cuba's natural trading partner would present what goods Cuba has to offer at what price, and what price we pay for those goods from other sources.

Furthermore, embargoes are not the only source of trade barriers. For example, sugar subsidies and quotas are common, and present barriers for MANY countries. How do the effects of such trade barriers compare to the embargo? Would Cuba still be able to export much sugar to the US if, instead of an embargo, they just had to confront the sort of sugar tarriffs/subsidy schemes/quotas that we (and so many other countries) have in place? Would Cuba gain more from lifting of the US embargo, or from lifting of Europe's CAP subsidies? I'm actually not sure, but I'm far from convinced that the embargo is the primary trade barrier for goods.

If we were to drop the embargo and Castro were to soften his stance towards the US a bit, the US would soon dominate trade with Cuba again. Prior to the embargo, nearly 70% of Cuba's trade was with the US.

Proximity used to matter more than it does. Agricultural subsidies also distort markets more than they do. Trade balances shift over the course of decades, and there's no reason that we should expect it to come back to balance. Plus, the statistic is misleading to begin with. Suppose I can buy a can of coke at one grocery store for $1, and at a second store for $1.01. Suppose I buy 90% of my coke from the first store, and 10% of my coke from the second store. If, however, I'm prevented from entering the first store, I'll go to the second store for 100% of my coke purchases. The amount of coke I purchase will be only slightly diminished by the extra cost, it will NOT be diminished by 90%. We can expect that the trade Cuba would do with the US if able is not disappearing, but mostly shifting to slightly (but likely not significantly) higher cost producers/lower cost buyers elsewhere. The economy is globalized sufficiently that the implied impact in your 70% figure simply isn't going to materialize anything like that large in the actual impact.

Apart from trade, we're overlooking one of the most important things the US has to offer Cuba, and that's tourism. It's a vital sector of Cuba's economy these days (as it once was), and is almost single-handedly responsible for pulling Cuba out of the Special Period.

Tourism is the only significant trade source which can't simply redistribute, and you might have a point there.
 
Well, let's get a little more precise. I was presented a CLAIM that the US was Cuba's natural trading partner, not an argument. My point about the Netherlands is that proximity alone does not indicate natural trade partnership, because such an arrangement should favor nearer European countries over farther ones, and that's not the case. A natural trade partnership would depend on Cuba offering the US good that the US wanted to buy at attractive prices. Cuba does not, for example, export much sugar to other sugar producing countries nearby. An ARGUMENT that the US is Cuba's natural trading partner would present what goods Cuba has to offer at what price, and what price we pay for those goods from other sources.
Of course proximity is not the only factor, but for staple goods it's still a pretty important one.

The thing is, I don't think there are too many consumer or industrial sectors in Europe that aren't also represented in the US. I imagine that the Netherlands is a primary trading partner with Cuba because sugar processing big there, and I'm guessing Canada is #2 because a Canadian corporation just happens to jointly operate at least one major nickel mine in Cuba. This is another argument against the embargo from a strictly capitalist perspective: it has excluded US interests to the degree that other nations have an enormous head start in developing economic relationships with Cuba.

You're absolutely right that national sugar industries enjoy an unusual degree of protectionism, but sugar is not as important to Cuba's economy as it once was. The fall of the Soviet Union meant Cuba lost access to fertilizers to the degree that sugar production has fallen to something like 20% of production in the late 80s. I doubt that Cuba will ever return to the hyper-specialization of the Soviet era. Of course, the argument can be made that those trade barriers are harmful, too (I think the WTO recently found the EU's policy to be illegal).

And I agree that we wouldn't except trade to return to pre-revolution levels, but given that US agriculture is lobbying hard for the embargo to end, I'm guessing they have information that leads them to believe that trade will become significant again.
 

Back
Top Bottom