[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

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Meadmaker said:
I never understood your reasoning on why it should only apply at the elite level. As best I could tell, it came down to high school girls weren't important enough to care about who wins and who loses.
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No. That's not what it was/is about at all for me. I've explained my reasoning on this in several previous posts within the thread. But I can't say it's much of a surprise to see you alight on the idea that I thought "high school girls weren't important enough to care about who wins and who loses". Nice work!
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
I'm not sure what you mean. Hormone therapy is a common trans-affirming medical option that non-athlete trans people often seek out. Barriers to getting this medical care is an issue that is frequently cited as a problem. Changes in body composition is the intended goal, among others, of this therapy.

Is there any cases where trans people sought out this therapy strictly as a means to meet athletic requirements as opposed to as part of a broader gender-affirming medical program?
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What's the purpose of the hormone therapy?
 
LondonJohn said:
No. That's not what it was/is about at all for me. I've explained my reasoning on this in several previous posts within the thread. But I can't say it's much of a surprise to see you alight on the idea that I thought "high school girls weren't important enough to care about who wins and who loses". Nice work!
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You phrased it differently.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Alleviating gender dysphoria.
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Specifically the hormone therapy does what to alleviate gender dysphoria? Does it retard the growth of facial hair? Make their dick fall off?

I'm not talking about weakness as an unfortunate and unavoidable side effect of a treatment prescribed for some other purpose. I'm talking about weakness itself, through medical intervention, being requested or prescribed as a treatment for gender dysphoria.
 
theprestige said:
Specifically the hormone therapy does what to alleviate gender dysphoria? Does it retard the growth of facial hair? Make their dick fall off?

I'm not talking about weakness as an unfortunate and unavoidable side effect of a treatment prescribed for some other purpose. I'm talking about weakness itself, through medical intervention, being requested or prescribed as a treatment for gender dysphoria.
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Reduces muscle mass slightly (but not the level to remove male sports advantage), reduces hair loss on the scalp, softens skin, reduces (but doesn't eliminate) facial and body hair growth, causes fat redistribution and can cause some breast development and testicular atrophy.
 
Meadmaker said:
You phrased it differently.
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So I went back and looked. As best I could tell, it was about spectators.

I didn't see any commentary from you (LondonJohn) that suggested that the athletes themselves mattered.

Maybe I just didn't use the right search terms.
 
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theprestige said:
Specifically the hormone therapy does what to alleviate gender dysphoria? Does it retard the growth of facial hair? Make their dick fall off?

I'm not talking about weakness as an unfortunate and unavoidable side effect of a treatment prescribed for some other purpose. I'm talking about weakness itself, through medical intervention, being requested or prescribed as a treatment for gender dysphoria.
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Fire up the ole google box if you want to know more.

Is there some point you're getting to? Can we skip to that?
 
theprestige said:
We're coming from my point. You've been skipping away from it. Feel free to skip back to it any time you like. Easiest route would probably be to explain whether you agree or disagree with Eladith's answer.
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What Elaedith said seems, to my limited understanding, to be right. I didn't see a need to chime in just to agree with what can be readily found with a quick wikipedia search.

Hormones like testosterone and estrogen are responsible for much of the sexual dimorphism seen in humans, even in post-puberty adults. Hormone therapy can result in pronounced changes in the way the body is composed including muscle, fat, hair, sex organ, and skin changes. It has other more subtle effects too I assume.

I trust you're coming to a point soon?
 
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Ziggurat said:
That's an effect. But is that effect part of reducing gender dysphoria symptoms, or is it just a side effect from this perspective?
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I doubt it would be a primary part of reducing dysphoria for most people, as muscle mass isn't perceived as a distinct sex characteristic compared to facial hair, breasts, fat distribution etc.
 
Ziggurat said:
I think he already made his point: that weakness is not a goal of hormone therapy, only an unfortunate side effect.
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Unfortunate side effect, or one component of a suite of body changes that are desired by the patient?

Perhaps instead of assuming what trans patients do or don't want from trans affirming care, those making bold claims could produce some data to support them.
 
Ziggurat said:
Apparently they don't doubt that anymore.
https://nypost.com/2021/09/02/charg...st-sex-offender-in-notorious-wi-spa-incident/
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Yes, I was just about to post this.

'On Monday, August 30, charges of indecent exposure were discretely filed against a serial sex offender. According to reports, the suspect has been identified as Darren Agee Merager, who a group of women claimed was partially erect in the women’s section of Wi Spa.'

Merager claims the charges are discrimination against her as a transwoman. "If you go into an area where you’re expected to be nude, there has to be an indecent exposure exemption, " she added.

'Reports reveal that Merager is a tier-one registered sex offender with two prior convictions of indecent exposure incidents in 2002 and 2003 in California. ...........In addition to felony charges of indecent exposure at Wi Spa, she Merager is also facing six felony counts of indecent exposure over a locker room incident in December 2018.'
 
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