[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

[mgidm86]

That isn’t simple, that’s circular. Who are you asking, if you haven’t already decided what the definition of “woman” is? Does my answer to the question of what a woman is count, if I say that I’m a woman? Does my answer not count, if someone saying they are a woman says that I’m not?

Let's go with females. Only people who were born as women fall into that group. I also mentioned abortion. Can trans women get abortions? No, so who cares what they think about abortion?

But just to get around that "issue", go ahead and include trans women in the vote just for comparison, because there aren't enough to sway it either way.

Ask females if they think it's okay that biological males are breaking world records in womens' track and field. If they don't care then why should I?

What if it were changed from "womens" to "female" sports? Problem solved! Trans aren't female. Same with bathrooms. Uh oh, now what?

You can change terms and make things however you want them to be.

Six iterations of this thread and the same arguments come over and over and over. Talk about "circular".

 

[TurkeysGhost]

If you splinter off a cats' advocacy group from the RSPCA, it's not at all clear that dogs or hamsters or rabbits or llamas were a problem. Furthermore, people can support both the Cats Protection League and the RSPCA at the same time while recognising that the two groups have different aspirations.

Sexual attraction is not the same thing as gender identity. Groups advocating for people who are attracted to their same sex do not necessarily have the skills, experience, information or even the wish to advocate for people who do not express same sex attraction.

Man, those poor folks have a terrible PR problem, seems a lot of the queer community seems to think they're a bunch of reactionary transphobes

 

[theprestige]

Man, those poor folks have a terrible PR problem, seems a lot of the queer community seems to think they're a bunch of reactionary transphobes : p

Whereas the PR problem for the trans-activists is that a lot of people see them as reactionary misogynists and homophobes.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Whereas the PR problem for the trans-activists is that a lot of people see them as reactionary misogynists and homophobes.

Sure, in some circles.

The real issue is that the TERFS seem to be very upset that they are increasingly not welcome in progressive circles, despite their claim to be allies on all issues but trans rights. They seem to be very upset that they're getting thrown out of progressive communities like they are reactionary bigots, be that at pride marches or queer friendly bars. It really chaps their asses that their supposed allies want nothing to do with them and that they are immediately clocked as ideological enemies the second they walk into the room. That's why the TERF label hurts so bad, because it's a pointed criticism from within the community they wish they could be a member of.

These people would likely find more agreement among the right wing voices that are the predominant in the crusade against trans rights, but I imagine that's a cold comfort.

 

[Graham2001]

I'm not sure if this story belongs here or in the 'Cancel Culture' thread.



Basically a teachers joke on TikTok has landed them in a lot of trouble. (FWIW, the other related stories involve other teachers comparing pro-maskers to the KKK, the COVID vaccines to the Holocaust and similar things.)

In a now-deleted TikTok video, a Southern California teacher says that she suggested teens in her high school class pledge allegiance to an LGBTQ Pride flag instead of a missing U.S. flag.

https://www.sacbee.com/news/nation-world/national/article253883243.html


I think that something like this appeared in a Calvin and Hobbes cartoon except the pledge was to 'Queen Frag and the mighty nation of Hysteria'. Calvin got detention...

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I'm not sure if this story belongs here or in the 'Cancel Culture' thread.



Basically a teachers joke on TikTok has landed them in a lot of trouble. (FWIW, the other related stories involve other teachers comparing pro-maskers to the KKK, the COVID vaccines to the Holocaust and similar things.)





https://www.sacbee.com/news/nation-world/national/article253883243.html



I think that something like this appeared in a Calvin and Hobbes cartoon except the pledge was to 'Queen Frag and the mighty nation of Hysteria'. Calvin got detention...

I'm sure Bari Weiss will be on the case shortly. Surely the cancel culture crusaders will also object to this

 

[d4m10n]

https://twitter.com/conor64/status/1431734161723777026?t=G7yQJSWC6qMPKFOTOSQOpQ

 

[d4m10n]

Does anyone happen to have good info on the Marion Millar case in Scotland?

https://twitter.com/WordsmithWyle/status/1400803642521919489

 

[LondonJohn]

That's an interesting observation--it does lead me to wonder if most of the adult males that ACTUALLY find themselves in prison are asking to identify as women, and if not what is causing the disparity.

Well, we know the answer to this in England & Wales prisons, at least:

In 2019 - the latest year for which the data are available, I think - there were apparently 34 (thirty-four) transwoman prisoners without gender reassignment certificates in the E&W prison system. In addition, the total with GRCs was apparently "in single figures".

So that makes a grand total of a maximum of 44 (forty-four) transwoman prisoners in the E&W prisoner population in 2019.

The total male prisoner population at that point was somewhere around 80,000.

So therefore, the percentage of transwoman prisoners as a percentage of all male (ie cisman and transwoman) prisoners is.... wait for it....

0.06%

(So much for the baloney that males heading to prison would declare themselves in their hordes to be transwomen. I guess the BS "polling" carried out by some people was possibly either self-selecting or a lie....)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629


That article also points out the fact that transwoman prisoners are each screened very carefully for prior history and for risk, before they are allowed to be housed in a women's prison. And they're managed very carefully once they're there. But I guess that doesn't fit well with the scaremongering, does it?



Oh, and I don't know whether this story has been reported within the thread. Another correct decision from people who actually understand law, ethics and morality (especially when one considers that the cliche about High Court judges is that they're reactionary dinosaurs who are ultra-conservative and non-progressive.....):

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57692993


And that article points to two interesting parts in the judges' ruling: firstly, they note that transwoman prisoners in women's prisons are very carefully monitored and managed; and secondly, they note that between 2016 and 2019, there were 97 sexual assaults of women in women's prisons in E&W - but only 7 (seven) - ie some 7% of the total - were carried out by transwomen without a GRC (and remember, the number of transwomen prisoners with a GRC is very small - in single figures - compared to those without).

So in fact, ciswomen in women's prisons ought to be very significantly more afraid of sexual assault by other ciswomen rather than transwomen. Who'd'a thunk it?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Well, we know the answer to this in England & Wales prisons, at least:

In 2019 - the latest year for which the data are available, I think - there were apparently 34 (thirty-four) transwoman prisoners without gender reassignment certificates in the E&W prison system. In addition, the total with GRCs was apparently "in single figures".

So that makes a grand total of a maximum of 44 (forty-four) transwoman prisoners in the E&W prisoner population in 2019.

The total male prisoner population at that point was somewhere around 80,000.

So therefore, the percentage of transwoman prisoners as a percentage of all male (ie cisman and transwoman) prisoners is.... wait for it....

0.06%

(So much for the baloney that males heading to prison would declare themselves in their hordes to be transwomen. I guess the BS "polling" carried out by some people was possibly either self-selecting or a lie....)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629


That article also points out the fact that transwoman prisoners are each screened very carefully for prior history and for risk, before they are allowed to be housed in a women's prison. And they're managed very carefully once they're there. But I guess that doesn't fit well with the scaremongering, does it?



Oh, and I don't know whether this story has been reported within the thread. Another correct decision from people who actually understand law, ethics and morality (especially when one considers that the cliche about High Court judges is that they're reactionary dinosaurs who are ultra-conservative and non-progressive.....):

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57692993


And that article points to two interesting parts in the judges' ruling: firstly, they note that transwoman prisoners in women's prisons are very carefully monitored and managed; and secondly, they note that between 2016 and 2019, there were 97 sexual assaults of women in women's prisons in E&W - but only 7 (seven) - ie some 7% of the total - were carried out by transwomen without a GRC (and remember, the number of transwomen prisoners with a GRC is very small - in single figures - compared to those without).

So in fact, ciswomen in women's prisons ought to be very significantly more afraid of sexual assault by other ciswomen rather than transwomen. Who'd'a thunk it?

Get that pesky data out of here. The TERFs are not interested in any solution that isn't trans exclusion, full stop.

I'm also noticing a continued deafening silence after Canada adopted their new laws protecting trans people from discrimination, despite being assured that such laws would make it open season on cis-women by male perverts in disguise. Besides the TERF women's shelter taking their ball and going home rather than having to suffer the indignity of assisting at-need trans women, I haven't see any data showing that the C-16 bill was anything like the transphobes claimed.

That's what I mean by animus. It's extremely obvious that safety concerns and whatnot are not the only thing on many trans exclusionists minds. It's obvious that they are personally disgusted by the idea of comingling with trans people and take it as a personal affront that trans people might be afforded basic human dignity or, horror of horror, share the label "woman" with them.

 

[Earthborn]

Or you know, a prison system that acknowledges that males commit a massively higher proportion of violent crimes and sexual crimes than females do.

That will just mean a larger proportion of males than females get imprisoned. It does not necessarily mean the males already imprisoned are necessarily more violent than the already imprisoned females.

Tell you what - you figure out a way to reduce the level of aggression, violence, and sexual crimes among males the the same level as demonstrated by females across the globe,

Designing a better prison system does not require aggresion to be bred out its inmates. It just should make it very difficult to commit crimes while in prison, and not have a prison in which the inmates run the facility.

A prison is mostly for housing people who are likely to be violent and should therefore be able to prevent violence; one inmate per cell, no overcrowding, no communal dining halls, no communal showers, communal recreation only in small groups and under strict supervision. Easy peasy.

Advocates and activists for transgender privileges and entitlements.

Which ones?

No, I don't think 'everybody here' accepts that, because that's observably NOT what is occurring in the real world.

Perhaps you should present some examples of it occuring in the real world.

Furthermore, I don't even think it's reasonable to assume that 'everybody here' thinks that's how it *should* work, as there are a few posters whose positions have shown that they believe that shelters should NOT be allowed to be single-sex spaces.

I have not noticed anyone arguing such a position. Any quotes?

 

[Meadmaker]

So therefore, the percentage of transwoman prisoners as a percentage of all male (ie cisman and transwoman) prisoners is.... wait for it....

0.06%

...


but only 7 (seven) - ie some 7% of the total - were carried out by transwomen without a GRC

I'm not sure that these stats, taken together, actually support the case you wish to make.


However, there was a lot of other good info in your post. I do agree that in general, it isn't likely very many men will declare that they are actually women in order to be assigned to a women's prison. It also seems like there are safeguards to try to prevent that sort of thing, which is good, because the few who do will be very scary people.

I must admit prison housing is one of those things I haven't gotten too worked up about prison related issues. Reading these pages, I had to agree that there shouldn't even need to be segregation by sex in prisons, and the fact that they have to be segregated is probably a sign that something is wrong.

That being said, I guess that my same basic principle would apply in prisons just as it does in locker rooms. Females should never be in a situation where they would have to disrobe in the presence of males, regardless of how those males think of themselves.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I'm not sure that these stats, taken together, actually support the case you wish to make.


However, there was a lot of other good info in your post. I do agree that in general, it isn't likely very many men will declare that they are actually women in order to be assigned to a women's prison. It also seems like there are safeguards to try to prevent that sort of thing, which is good, because the few who do will be very scary people.

I must admit prison housing is one of those things I haven't gotten too worked up about prison related issues. Reading these pages, I had to agree that there shouldn't even need to be segregation by sex in prisons, and the fact that they have to be segregated is probably a sign that something is wrong.

That being said, I guess that my same basic principle would apply in prisons just as it does in locker rooms. Females should never be in a situation where they would be disrobed in the presence of males, regardless of how those males think of themselves.

The prison debate is pretty clearly an issue where the obvious, overriding problem is that prisons, especially in the US, are hellholes where civil rights don't exist. The fact that very little is done to safeguard prisoners, both from other prisoners and from prison staff, is something that should be a scandal, but isn't.

The most obvious solution to concerns about prison violence is to actually insist that prisons do their duty to those in their care who, by nature of their incarceration, have very little ability to protect themselves. Everything else is just polishing a turd.

 

[d4m10n]

Get that pesky data out of here. The TERFs are not interested in any solution that isn't trans exclusion, full stop.

Have you made an affirmative argument for segregation by gender identity rather than sexual characteristics?

 

[ponderingturtle]

I'm not sure if this story belongs here or in the 'Cancel Culture' thread.



Basically a teachers joke on TikTok has landed them in a lot of trouble. (FWIW, the other related stories involve other teachers comparing pro-maskers to the KKK, the COVID vaccines to the Holocaust and similar things.)





https://www.sacbee.com/news/nation-world/national/article253883243.html


I think that something like this appeared in a Calvin and Hobbes cartoon except the pledge was to 'Queen Frag and the mighty nation of Hysteria'. Calvin got detention...

Given the whole pledge thing was a scam to sell American flags it is against our most deeply held beliefs in capitalism to use any other flag. Why it is heresy against marketing!

 

[Ziggurat]

For a comparison, consider a person who identifies as younger than they are chronologically. Would it be reasonable and coherent to allow a 40 year old person to compete against 10 year olds on a little league team, because of their identity? Or do you think that their biology as a fully developed adult with an adult athletic capability and size advantage should be held as a more significant arbiter of fairness to the children in the league?

Let's take this a step further. Not only do many sports have youth leagues, but there are also many "masters" leagues, which are for older competitors only. A 25 year old cannot "identify" as a 60 year old in order to compete against the 60 year olds in the masters leagues because that would be unfair, but there are no rules prohibiting the 60 year olds from competing against the 25 year olds in the open leagues, because that's not a problem. That's directly analogous to why nobody's upset about transmen competing against men. The advantage only flows in 1 direction.

 

[theprestige]

Let's take this a step further. Not only do many sports have youth leagues, but there are also many "masters" leagues, which are for older competitors only. A 25 year old cannot "identify" as a 60 year old in order to compete against the 60 year olds in the masters leagues because that would be unfair, but there are no rules prohibiting the 60 year olds from competing against the 25 year olds in the open leagues, because that's not a problem. That's directly analogous to why nobody's upset about transmen competing against men. The advantage only flows in 1 direction.

I'm firmly convinced that the most important consideration here is that nobody here actually needs this explained. You, me, EC, ST, LJ, JM, d4, and all the rest of us participating in this thread already understand this perfectly. Attempts to put the discussion on this basis amount to trolling in lieu of conceding a bad argument.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

Probably a bit off topic, but can someone answer this?

I haven't really followed all of the latest in trans activism, even though I interact with a couple of trans-people on a somewhat regular basis. I somehow got in my head that sex and gender were supposed to be different things, where sex is the biological fixed aspect and gender is the free, pick it yourself part (This is ignoring intersex people). So, for example, my sex is male, and my gender is also male, but I could decide to identify as female, and maybe even take it a step farther and present as female by dressing in women's fashions or even having operations done and/or taking hormones. Then I could further decide I was gender fluid and occasionally identify as male or some other gender or just say I'm gender fluid.

I thought it would be the case that through all the above, from the point of view of trans activists, my sex would remain male and it would only be my gender that is changing all the time. Is this correct?

I'm not sure how I figured all the above, I probably just pieced it together from hearing activist types talk, and then it seemed to be somewhat understandable and fit with the conversations I heard. However, recently I saw this curiously hilarious Piers Morgan interview and now I think my understanding was incorrect. Please help!

 

[Meadmaker]

I thought it would be the case that through all the above, from the point of view of trans activists, my sex would remain male and it would only be my gender that is changing all the time. Is this correct?

That's certainly how I once understood it, but more recently I have seen objections to it. However, it seems to me that the objections come from the fact that in agreeing to the above you are also agreeing to the idea that there is something about sex that is immutable. That doesn't fit well with the associated ideology.

One aside. I think a lot of people would object to the way you used the word "decide" in your post. I don't think they would say their was any decision, other than in the way they choose to express themselves to an external observer

 

[theprestige]

That's certainly how I once understood it, but more recently I have seen objections to it. However, it seems to me that the objections come from the fact that in agreeing to the above you are also agreeing to the idea that there is something about sex that is immutable. That doesn't fit well with the associated ideology.

One aside. I think a lot of people would object to the way you used the word "decide" in your post. I don't think they would say their was any decision, other than in the way they choose to express themselves to an external observer

I think certain lines of reasonable discussion are dead-ending because of this ideological consideration. I think we could almost all be in almost total agreement about almost everything... But the moment you say, "it totally makes sense for transwomen athletes to compete with the other male athletes", you get in trouble with the trans-activist orthodoxy.

So you end up looking for a way to blame the TERFs for why you won't go there.