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The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-Opened

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Axxman300 said:
Oh good, we're back to non-existent submarines again. And we're getting more of Vixen's poor history knowledge thrown in.

1. No submarine captain is going to willingly ram a surface vessel, it's not just stupid it's insane.

2. Why task any vessel to shadow a ferry sailing from a known point of departure to a known point of arrival? Last time I checked the KGB/FSB has agents all over Europe, and would have simply had a guy waiting for the Estonia when it arrived. He would have likely photographed the drivers of the mystery trucks, and followed them to their destination. Hell, they might have had a guy on the Estonia following the stolen items (maybe it was a KGB sting operation). Hardware is not as important as fleshing out a smuggling network who is stealing your state secrets to sell to the west.

3. There was no torpedo. We know this because there was no fire. Torpedo technology has evolved since WWII, which is what the average person thinks of when this subject comes up. The warheads and they way they're designed to explode are more destructive today:

[qimg]https://media.giphy.com/media/gjbIGLLbwULle/giphy.gif[/qimg]

4. KAL-007 has nothing to do with this conversation. It was an airplane, not a ship. It was within Soviet air-space, not international air-space. The Soviets thought it was a US spyplane (RC-135). The irony is today the US will shoot down an unresponsive passenger jet in broad daylight over its air-space.

Just stop.
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I linked to that video earlier in the thread when torpedoes were mentioned, and again today. It's an ex Australian navy Leander class being hit by a Mk 48 torpedo, standard US design used for decades.

How that could be mistaken for a small charge on the bow visor or inside the hull is anybody's guess.
 
Vixen said:
The Soviets had no qualms in shooting down a Korean Airline in 1983, and in that case, the sovereign nations were barred from recovering the bodies - one incidence of the USA being unable to bring home its dead nationals.
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Did the Estonia wander into Soviet airspace during the Cold War? So now it could both fly and time-travel? How long did Carl Bildt and Kari Lehtola keep the truth about KAL007 under wraps?
 
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erwinl said:
That is nowhere an anwser to my question 'Are you now suggesting that the Estonia was torpedoed?'.

That is a yes or no question (possibly qualified yes or qualified no).

Of course the yes or no can then be explained, why you feel it is a yes or a no (and please do), but the question itself askes for a very simple and short answer.

So.

Are you now suggesting that the Estonia was torpedoed?
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It is not likely.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
I can safely say that the Royal Navy would not torpedo a passenger ferry in another countries territorial waters.
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And were you to discover that MI6, together with the Swedish and American intelligence agencies were involved in Former Soviet Union secrets smuggling and the sinking of the Estonia was in retaliation (it is suspected) by the Russians, or criminal gangsters, could you still 'safely' hold that view?
 
Axxman300 said:
Oh, and while some people are wildly speculating and throwing out silly theories the investigation is on going. From July, 20, 2021:

https://www.baltictimes.com/prelimi...ck_crushed_to_large_extent_on_starboard_side/

Key updates:



And...



So the ramp is now open and they can get inside the car deck if they wish.

But wait, there's more...



And yes, they surveyed the mystery hole...



As I predicted:



And now a new mystery:



My current theory:

[qimg]https://media.giphy.com/media/3oEjI789af0AVurF60/giphy.gif[/qimg]
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I thought this extract was interesting:

And now a new mystery:

Quote:
A signal that interfered with the sonar was a concern, Arikas said. 3D sonar visibility was 150 meters on the first day of the survey, after which an hour-long interference occurred. Later, the interference was constant, reducing sonar visibility to just 20 meters and preventing the survey crew from measuring the curve of the wreck.
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The Russians are notorious for sending out signal blocking transmissions. I wonder whether something of that nature went on here.
 
Vixen said:
I thought this extract was interesting:





The Russians are notorious for sending out signal blocking transmissions. I wonder whether something of that nature went on here.
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Guess what else interferes with sonar?
 
Vixen said:
And were you to discover that MI6, together with the Swedish and American intelligence agencies were involved in Former Soviet Union secrets smuggling and the sinking of the Estonia was in retaliation (it is suspected) by the Russians, or criminal gangsters, could you still 'safely' hold that view?
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Please be sure to let us know if you do discover anything like this is real. I won't be holding my breath.

I guess "it is suspected" is the new "people are saying".
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Please be sure to let us know if you do discover anything like this is real. I won't be holding my breath.

I guess "it is suspected" is the new "people are saying".
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Well, the Swedish government already confirmed it was real.

This is a current affairs topic, not a conspiracy theories one.

All we are waiting on now is at last the truth and the survivors (who only received SEK180,000) and the relatives of the dead who probably received more, but not much more, can now get the compensation they are entitled to, as well as closure from having been lied to from Day One.
 
Vixen said:
Well, the Swedish government already confirmed it was real.

This is a current affairs topic, not a conspiracy theories one.

All we are waiting on now is at last the truth and the survivors (who only received SEK180,000) and the relatives of the dead who probably received more, but not much more, can now get the compensation they are entitled to, as well as closure from having been lied to from Day One.
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Oh sure. Now you trust the Swedish government. When they finally agree with you on something,
 
Vixen said:
And were you to discover that MI6, together with the Swedish and American intelligence agencies were involved in Former Soviet Union secrets smuggling and the sinking of the Estonia was in retaliation (it is suspected) by the Russians, or criminal gangsters, could you still 'safely' hold that view?
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It is not 'suspected' by anyone who thinks rationally.

Why Would the Royal Navy sink a civilian passenger vessel in someone else's territorial waters?
It's not something they would do in a war.
 
Vixen said:
I thought this extract was interesting:





The Russians are notorious for sending out signal blocking transmissions. I wonder whether something of that nature went on here.
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What would this 'transmission' be?

Where would it come from?

Changes in salinity and temperature at different depth block sonar.
Anti Submarine vessels use variable depth sonar arrays to dip down through the various blocking layers to hunt for submarines which are very good at exploiting them to avoid detection.
 
Vixen said:
Well, the Swedish government already confirmed it was real.

This is a current affairs topic, not a conspiracy theories one.

All we are waiting on now is at last the truth and the survivors (who only received SEK180,000) and the relatives of the dead who probably received more, but not much more, can now get the compensation they are entitled to, as well as closure from having been lied to from Day One.
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Where have the Swedish government said that a Russian submarine torpedoed anything?
 
Captain_Swoop said:
What would this 'transmission' be?



Where would it come from?



Changes in salinity and temperature at different depth block sonar.

Anti Submarine vessels use variable depth sonar arrays to dip down through the various blocking layers to hunt for submarines which are very good at exploiting them to avoid detection.
Click to expand...
I've known about thermal layers and other such natural phenomena since playing Sea Wolf in the 90s. I've had to apply similar understanding to work I've done in audio system design both in terms of environment (a layer of warm, moist air forms over a crowd during a show) and how this phenomena is analogous to impedance matching issues in signal flow (some energy is reflected from source to destination).

I was never aware it was the Russians who were making my job so much more difficult. I suppose some intermittent feedback can sound like sonar pings.

It all makes sense now!
 
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Delphic Oracle said:
I was never aware it was the Russians who were making my job so much more difficult. I suppose some intermittent feedback can sound like sonar pings.

It all makes sense now!
Click to expand...

giphy.gif


In Russia sonar pings you.
 
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