The supernatural

[heydarian saeed]

Hey, good to see you again, "Open-Minded-Mark".

Look, the guy pretty much made it clear that English is not his first language, but some must attack him for it. And he was very pleasant in his postings. Honestly, this whole thread is, in fact, a testament to Islam...and shines a light on the general intolerance of the faith.

But, maybe that is what the audience needed to see.

Hi. Thank you very much.

 

[Warp12]

... Continue the method;
2. Expansion of the world:
The "expansion theory of the universe" is perhaps the most important astronomical discovery of the twentieth century, according to which galaxies are moving at a tremendous distance and distance from each other, as a result of which the universe is constantly expanding and expanding.The universe is expanding rapidly, but we do not feel it. Scientists have been able to measure its speed using advanced tools. This is a fact that no one knew about at the time of the revelation of the Qur'an.This scientific achievement of scientists has been achieved after a lot of research and spending a lot of money and for a long time. It is strange that the Qur'an announced the expansion of the world 1400 years ago in the following verse.
(Surah Dhariyat, verse 47)Translation: "We have built the heavens with power, and We will never expand it."
The phrase "we are expanding the sky"; (We always expand it) makes it clear that a supreme and supreme force has created the heavens with its full power and is constantly expanding them.This matter is mentioned in the book of Quran in the seventh century AD. And even until half a century ago, scientists believed that the universe was shrinking and shrinking. Until a group of scientists realized that; The universe and celestial bodies are moving away from each other and the universe is expanding! This is while the book of Quran has said it 14 centuries ago!Today, astronomical observations by telescopes show that celestial spheres and galaxies are rapidly moving away; And the world is expanding, so the meaning of this sentence becomes quite clear to us. In the book "The Beginning and the End of the World" written by John Alder, we read:
"The latest and most accurate measurements of the wavelengths emanating from the stars reveal this astonishing fact and show that the set of stars that the universe is made of is constantly moving at a very high speed, from They move away from the center of the universe, and the farther away they are from this center, the faster they travel, and it seems that once all the stars in this center were complex, and then disintegrated and formed a large set of stars. "They break away from them and move quickly in all directions. Scientists have also used the idea that the universe had a starting point."

There are many translations of this, of course. One is as such:

"And the heaven, we have constructed it mightily, and it is surely we who have vast power, and keep expanding it.

Also

With power did we construct the heaven. Verily, we are able to extend the vastness of space thereof.

Might I suggest that any text from your article, that you put in a certain form, such as italics, bold, or a different font/color? Otherwise it is hard to tell your article from a regular response.

 

[heydarian saeed]

There are many translations of this, of course. One is as such:

"And the heaven, we have constructed it mightily, and it is surely we who have vast power, and keep expanding it.

Also

With power did we construct the heaven. Verily, we are able to extend the vastness of space thereof.

Might I suggest that any text from your article, that you put in a certain form, such as italics, bold, or a different font/color? Otherwise it is hard to tell your article from a regular response.

Hi dear friend. Thank you for explaining the two meanings of the verse to us. If we are careful; In both meanings, the verse refers to the same scientific matter. Isn't that so?

 

[Warp12]

Hi dear friend. Thank you for explaining the two meanings of the verse to us. If we are careful; In both meanings, the verse refers to the same scientific matter. Isn't that so?

The verse refers to the creation of the universe, it would seem.

Some translations would back up the science fact of an expanding universe. But, things can be translated in many ways.

I am still not sure how this is leading to an understanding or demonstration of the supernatural.

 

[Pixel42]

... Continue the method;
2. Expansion of the world:
The "expansion theory of the universe" is perhaps the most important astronomical discovery of the twentieth century, according to which galaxies are moving at a tremendous distance and distance from each other, as a result of which the universe is constantly expanding and expanding.The universe is expanding rapidly, but we do not feel it. Scientists have been able to measure its speed using advanced tools. This is a fact that no one knew about at the time of the revelation of the Qur'an.This scientific achievement of scientists has been achieved after a lot of research and spending a lot of money and for a long time. It is strange that the Qur'an announced the expansion of the world 1400 years ago in the following verse.
(Surah Dhariyat, verse 47)
Translation: "We have built the heavens with power, and We will never expand it."
The phrase "we are expanding the sky"; (We always expand it) makes it clear that a supreme and supreme force has created the heavens with its full power and is constantly expanding them.This matter is mentioned in the book of Quran in the seventh century AD. And even until half a century ago, scientists believed that the universe was shrinking and shrinking. Until a group of scientists realized that; The universe and celestial bodies are moving away from each other and the universe is expanding! This is while the book of Quran has said it 14 centuries ago!Today, astronomical observations by telescopes show that celestial spheres and galaxies are rapidly moving away; And the world is expanding, so the meaning of this sentence becomes quite clear to us. In the book "The Beginning and the End of the World" written by John Alder, we read:
"The latest and most accurate measurements of the wavelengths emanating from the stars reveal this astonishing fact and show that the set of stars that the universe is made of is constantly moving at a very high speed, from They move away from the center of the universe, and the farther away they are from this center, the faster they travel, and it seems that once all the stars in this center were complex, and then disintegrated and formed a large set of stars. "They break away from them and move quickly in all directions. Scientists have also used the idea that the universe had a starting point."

Yes, I can see that this verse can be interpreted as referring to an expanding universe, amongst many other interpretations. And if the book was full of such verses, and there were no verses whose obvious interpretation contradicted facts that have since been established, then I might be at least a little bit impressed, despite the hateful parts of the book in question. But neither is the case. Even the most vigourous of mental gymnastics will only find a handful of such arguably correct verses, and they are outnumbered by the obviously incorrect (not to mention the disgusting) ones. So sheer coincidence seems a much more likely explanation of these minor arguable hits than that their author was receiving dictation from God. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, as they say.

 

[steenkh]

... Continue the method;

It is very wrong of you to just carry on as if nothing has happened. Your arguments have already failed completely, and you just ignore it.

When people point out obvious errors in your argumentation, at best you just claim that you have already answered it, or at worst you act as if it never happened.

Are you only here to deliver a sermon?

It seems that you are, despite your claim that you are not, and in that case I can tell you that your bad debating style is not convincing anyone here about the wonders of the quran.

 

[heydarian saeed]

Further to post 193, which says the Quran says at verse 21.30 God made every living thing of water. Muhammad clearly stole this from Genesis 1.20 from the bible.

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Genesis-1-20/

Hello. Both books are from Islam. The religion of all the prophets of Islam and God. Religion from the time of "Adam" to "Muhammad" is divine Islam. That is, they worship the one God. But with different names. The biblical theme of the divine religions is the same. Although some books are more complete. And the book of the Qur'an ... This is what you say in both books. Because the narrator of the divine books is only one person and that is "God". So this, or something like that, if you see it in the books of the various divine religions, is not a contradiction. All issued from one source.

 

[heydarian saeed]

Yes, I can see that this verse can be interpreted as referring to an expanding universe, amongst many other interpretations. And if the book was full of such verses, and there were no verses whose obvious interpretation contradicted facts that have since been established, then I might be at least a little bit impressed, despite the hateful parts of the book in question. But neither is the case. Even the most vigourous of mental gymnastics will only find a handful of such arguably correct verses, and they are outnumbered by the obviously incorrect (not to mention the disgusting) ones. So sheer coincidence seems a much more likely explanation of these minor arguable hits than that their author was receiving dictation from God. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, as they say.

Hi. I have a few questions for you. Whose work can this reference to science and especially the new science that has been discovered in the last century be? Muhammad? He was illiterate. The people of Muhammad? They had nothing but their limited prose poetry and baseless superstitions and suspicions. So who is saying this in the Qur'an? I do not intend to change your mind. Please, just look at these scientific materials and the reference to the new sciences that are mentioned in the book of the Qur'an with neutral glasses. That means do not be biased only on your previous knowledge. Rather, think about the same things that are said in the Qur'an. Of course, I also gave the address. To be checked.And I do not insist on accepting my content or the Qur'an for you. You have the right to choose. And this is your right. Good luck.

 

[heydarian saeed]

It is very wrong of you to just carry on as if nothing has happened. Your arguments have already failed completely, and you just ignore it.

When people point out obvious errors in your argumentation, at best you just claim that you have already answered it, or at worst you act as if it never happened.

Are you only here to deliver a sermon?

It seems that you are, despite your claim that you are not, and in that case I can tell you that your bad debating style is not convincing anyone here about the wonders of the quran.

Hello. I have answered my friends to the best of my ability. Of course, it may have defects and it is not complete. For a complete answer, friends can refer to the religious sources of Islam, such as the meaning and interpretation of the Qur'an and related scientific sources. In any case, if I have upset anyone, I apologize for answering their questions.And I apologize to you. And thank you for your helpful article in this regard

 

[heydarian saeed]

The verse refers to the creation of the universe, it would seem.

Some translations would back up the science fact of an expanding universe. But, things can be translated in many ways.

I am still not sure how this is leading to an understanding or demonstration of the supernatural.

Thank you for your kind comments. This content mentioned in the Qur'an is a prelude to proving the existence of the supernatural. Note that it only says that it is supernatural. But it does not say how and what the supernatural is. If we are looking for sex and how and what is supernatural, this is not the way. And yet man has not been able to comprehend what is supernatural. Because it is clear from its name: it is supernatural and matter means beyond it. It is not matter and nature itself. So what? Nobody knows. I just prove that it exists and exists. And I show it from his works. This. Only. Nothing else.

 

[heydarian saeed]

I hope that the day will come when human science will discover and discover what nature is - how and how it is supernatural. It is a difficult path, but man is curious and follows the path of science to reach his goal of discovering the unknown.

 

[Warp12]

Thank you for your kind comments. This content mentioned in the Qur'an is a prelude to proving the existence of the supernatural. Note that it only says that it is supernatural. But it does not say how and what the supernatural is. If we are looking for sex and how and what is supernatural, this is not the way. And yet man has not been able to comprehend what is supernatural. Because it is clear from its name: it is supernatural and matter means beyond it. It is not matter and nature itself. So what? Nobody knows. I just prove that it exists and exists. And I show it from his works. This. Only. Nothing else.

Due to the language gap, it is a little hard to communicate.

But, I will say, the arrogance of mankind is something that should be humbled, in general. Here, we have people telling us how advanced our science is, while ignoring their small spot in the grand scheme.

 

[heydarian saeed]

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to match quoted post

A testament to what about it? It is a religion whose holy book people attempt to retrofit to science in order to claim it must be the divine word of god. It isn't alone in this, and just because this is a rather poor attempt to paper over the cracks doesn't mean that this thread is unique either.

However, Islam is also a religion whose holy book very explicitly states that apostates should be killed. The Bible also shares this trait, but the quran is unique in how often it repeats this commandment. Not just the proclamations about how we will burn in hell (although that crops up constantly too) but to kill us. The Quran directly instructs Muslims to kill all non believers wherever they find them. More than once. That's a pretty disgusting book.



I have no problem with Muslims. I in fact find it impressive that there are so many good people who profess to believe in the violent, supremacist book of horrors that is the Quran, just like I find it impressive there are so many good people who profess to believe in the violent, supremacist book of horrors that is the Bible.

I do have a problem with any supremacist ideology. Any ideology that states that those outside of it should be killed and deserve to be killed is a horrifying one. I don't care if it is a religious ideology like Islam and Christianity or a political one like Fascism.

Hello dear friend. I read your articles about the Quran in this post. I must say that I am sorry that the Qur'an itself has been portrayed by us Muslims out of ignorance, and again, unfortunately, out of hatred and violence by some people. Yes, there is the word and phrase of hell and fire in the Qur'an, but note that there are the same number of words of heaven, blessing, goodness, comfort and reward. If our actions and words are good, we deserve the reward of heaven and we will see. And if not ... there is heaven and hell in this world and parallel to this world. Isn't it that we humans create hell with war and bloodshed and set ourselves on fire? Why shouldn't we create paradise in this world? I follow the creation of paradise in this world.

 

[Scorpion]

... Continue the method;
2. Expansion of the world:
The "expansion theory of the universe" is perhaps the most important astronomical discovery of the twentieth century, according to which galaxies are moving at a tremendous distance and distance from each other, as a result of which the universe is constantly expanding and expanding.The universe is expanding rapidly, but we do not feel it. Scientists have been able to measure its speed using advanced tools. This is a fact that no one knew about at the time of the revelation of the Qur'an.This scientific achievement of scientists has been achieved after a lot of research and spending a lot of money and for a long time. It is strange that the Qur'an announced the expansion of the world 1400 years ago in the following verse.
(Surah Dhariyat, verse 47)
Translation: "We have built the heavens with power, and We will never expand it."
The phrase "we are expanding the sky"; (We always expand it) makes it clear that a supreme and supreme force has created the heavens with its full power and is constantly expanding them.This matter is mentioned in the book of Quran in the seventh century AD. And even until half a century ago, scientists believed that the universe was shrinking and shrinking. Until a group of scientists realized that; The universe and celestial bodies are moving away from each other and the universe is expanding! This is while the book of Quran has said it 14 centuries ago!Today, astronomical observations by telescopes show that celestial spheres and galaxies are rapidly moving away; And the world is expanding, so the meaning of this sentence becomes quite clear to us. In the book "The Beginning and the End of the World" written by John Alder, we read:
"The latest and most accurate measurements of the wavelengths emanating from the stars reveal this astonishing fact and show that the set of stars that the universe is made of is constantly moving at a very high speed, from They move away from the center of the universe, and the farther away they are from this center, the faster they travel, and it seems that once all the stars in this center were complex, and then disintegrated and formed a large set of stars. "They break away from them and move quickly in all directions. Scientists have also used the idea that the universe had a starting point."

Please put the surah number, not just the names. Because I for one have to go through the entire Quran looking up the names to find which surah you are talking about. As for surah Al Dhariyat it is surah 51 and you are quoting verse 47

Here is verse 51.47 according to M.M. Pichthall

We have built the heaven with might, and We it is who made the vast extent thereof.

Here is Darwoods translation of 51.47

We built the heaven with our might, giving it a vast expanse and stretched the earth beneath it.

Here is the Yusuf Ali translation 51.47

With power and skill did we construct the firmament: for it is we who expand the vastness of space. 51.48 And we have spread out the earth: How excellently we do spread out!

Only the Yusuf Ali translation could be construed as meaning space is expanding. And that is not clear. And the next verse says the earth is flat.

 

[Warp12]

Only the Yusuf Ali translation could be construed as meaning space is expanding. And that is not clear. And the next verse says the earth is flat.

Not. Unless you must translate everything in a literal fashion.

 

[Scorpion]

Not. Unless you must translate everything in a literal fashion.

Translation is an issue, and lots of Muslims say you cannot know what is in the Quran unless you read it in Arabic. I refuse to be daunted by that argument and feel that comparing many English translations, and not being too dogmatic about any one translation can give you an overview of what the Arabic Quran says.

The next issue is interpretation, and my argument is that Muslims take simple one line verses, and interpret them to mean things they do not in order to aggrandize the Quran, and give it more profound meaning than it deserves.

Incidentally does anyone know of a web site that gives multiple English translations of the Quran? I used to know one that had about forty translations to compare, but I cannot find it and suppose its gone off line.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Hello dear friend. I read your articles about the Quran in this post. I must say that I am sorry that the Qur'an itself has been portrayed by us Muslims out of ignorance, and again, unfortunately, out of hatred and violence by some people.

It isn't the actions of some Muslims that I am talking about, it's the actual language of the book itself.

slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter.

Kill the unbelievers.

The disbelievers, they are the wrong-doers.

Disbelievers are wrong doers simply for not believing.

They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,

Don't be friends with a non believer because they want to drag you to non belief. If they convert to Islam then that's fine but if they don't or if they go back to non belief kill them. All of them.

Who doeth greater wrong than he who inventeth a lie concerning Allah or denieth Our tokens.

The greatest evil possible? No, not murder or rape or genocide. Rejection of Islam.

Evil as an example are the folk who denied Our revelations,

Non Muslims are evil.

This is not even a majority of the horrible intolerance and viciousness in the Quran. It's a handful of the literally hundreds of passages that preach supremacism and cruelty.

Yes, there is the word and phrase of hell and fire in the Qur'an, but note that there are the same number of words of heaven, blessing, goodness, comfort and reward.

Only for Muslims. Doesn't matter how good a person you are if you are not a muslim you will burn in hell for eternity, to say nothing of the many, many places that book says that we as non believers should be degraded, treated harshly and killed.

If our actions and words are good, we deserve the reward of heaven and we will see.

Not what your holy book says. Your holy book says that if you aren't a Muslim you burn in hell. Doesn't matter how good you are.

And if not ... there is heaven and hell in this world and parallel to this world.

Evidence for this please. I don't believe in heaven or hell. I think they are entirely fictional, but I'm willing to be convinced if you have some evidence for them.

Isn't it that we humans create hell with war and bloodshed and set ourselves on fire?

A lot of people do it because they follow whatever "holy" book they were brought up to believe. Much of the Middle Eastern conflict has been fuelled by the fact that the Quran repeatedly describes the Jews as evil.

Why shouldn't we create paradise in this world? I follow the creation of paradise in this world.

That sounds nice, but your book commands you to kill non believers. How can you say that you want to create a paradise on this world when your own book that is supposed to be the direct word of god commands you to kill people like me?

 

[Scorpion]

I hope that the day will come when human science will discover and discover what nature is - how and how it is supernatural. It is a difficult path, but man is curious and follows the path of science to reach his goal of discovering the unknown.

It is my view that science will never prove the supernatural. Because we are not meant to escape the confines of earthly incarnation by scientifically provable means. The road to spiritual understanding remains one of inner self development and personal evolution. Some refer to it as the journey to the east.

If we could penetrate the veil between the physical world and the spiritual world by science we would remove the whole point of being incarnated. We would also be likely to contaminate the spiritual realms with our unevolved self interested motivations.

 

[steenkh]

Hello. I have answered my friends to the best of my ability.

This is just a lame excuse. Do you understand the concept of a “lame excuse”?

For instance, you tried to claim that the the quran’s mention of east and west indicated the knowledge that the Earth is a sphere, but we pointed out that east and west work just as well on flat surfaces. You then came up with some nonsense about a sphere having an unlimited circumference, which is truly wrong, as any school child should be able to tell you.

Of course, it may have defects and it is not complete. For a complete answer, friends can refer to the religious sources of Islam, such as the meaning and interpretation of the Qur'an and related scientific sources.

I don’t think that you will find a proper description of the circumference in the quran, or you would already have shown us.

In any case, if I have upset anyone, I apologize for answering their questions.

You mean not answering the questions…

 

[steenkh]

I hope that the day will come when human science will discover and discover what nature is - how and how it is supernatural.

Before we come to that stage you have to show that there is such a thing as “the supernatural”. Currently, there is not a shred of evidence that the supernatural exists.

This is another area where you have simply ignored what we said. You claimed that it was current knowledge that “souls” exist, and several of us said “no, it is not current knowledge; in fact it appears that souls do not exist.”

Souls, seem to be something that religious people, and superstitious people believe in, but there is no evidence for this existence, any more than for Santa Claus.

So you cannot just continue to build your argumentation on the existence of souls, when in fact you need to bring evidence for their existence.