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The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-Opened

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What deafening roar of a stormy sea?
Sea makes no noise. We hear noise on the ashore because the waves break against it.
At sea you mainly hear the wind and the sound of the waves hitting the ship. Big waves against a ship make banging sounds.

A bow visor working up and down as iit's fastenings break free would make banging sounds.

Water flooding a ship will find the lowest point. On a passenger ship the passenger decks are not watertight spaces, they are connected by open stairways and passages. Cabins are not watertight. Why is it a surprise those on a lower deck were flooded first?

Waves of a relatively calm 2m high breaking on a seashore gives a decibel reading of 78db. Workplace safety is not much different from this and a constant 85dB over 24-hours is likely to damage one's hearing.

Fact is, survivors relate that they could not hear what others were shouting because of the sheer noise of the storm. So if there was a sudden 2,000 inflow of water into the car deck literally bursting in, the racket would be so rip-roaringly tremendous and someone would have remarked on the ear-splitting and terrifying rush of water but never did.

I don't know if you have ever been to the Niagara Falls but you can hear it well before you even approach it.
 
What deafening roar of a stormy sea?
Sea makes no noise. We hear noise on the ashore because the waves break against it.
At sea you mainly hear the wind and the sound of the waves hitting the ship. Big waves against a ship make banging sounds.

A bow visor working up and down as iit's fastenings break free would make banging sounds.

Water flooding a ship will find the lowest point. On a passenger ship the passenger decks are not watertight spaces, they are connected by open stairways and passages. Cabins are not watertight. Why is it a surprise those on a lower deck were flooded first?

Bang + water in cabins below waterline (these deck 1 cabins are literally below the sea) = breach in hull
 
There was an attempt to recover the bodies of the victims of the Piper Alpha oil rig disaster, in 1988, in the North Sea, from a depth of 144m - much, much deeper than the Baltic wreck.

wiki

So you see, it can be done. Where there is a will, there is a way.
Do you think there is a difference between recovering part of a galley from the sea bed and recovering a 15,000 ton ship?

As already posted the Estonia probably could be raised but only in small pieces.
 
...and know exactly when to don the survival suit.

Yes, when you are duty crew for the rescue boat or water is flooding in to your compartment or the ship is taking on a list and water is flooding the car deck.

I would certainly have one on and be preparing to evacuate the ship.
Any crew that didn't wasn't very well trained.
 
Waves of a relatively calm 2m high breaking on a seashore gives a decibel reading of 78db. Workplace safety is not much different from this and a constant 85dB over 24-hours is likely to damage one's hearing.

Fact is, survivors relate that they could not hear what others were shouting because of the sheer noise of the storm. So if there was a sudden 2,000 inflow of water into the car deck literally bursting in, the racket would be so rip-roaringly tremendous and someone would have remarked on the ear-splitting and terrifying rush of water but never did.

I don't know if you have ever been to the Niagara Falls but you can hear it well before you even approach it.

Again with the workplace safety and ear splitting.

Any noise on deck is the noise of the wind or waves hitting the ship.

Why do you think water entering the car deck would be a racket would be 'rip-roaringly tremendous'?
It would certainly be noisy but if you aren't on the car deck you aren't going to hear much of it. Why would it be 'ear splitting'?
 
Bang + water in cabins below waterline (these deck 1 cabins are literally below the sea) = breach in hull

No, it means water is getting in. Water flooding the car deck would come down through the passenger decks, they are not water tight spaces, they have open stairwells and passageways. Cabins are not watertight.

There aren't any passenger cabins below the waterline. There were only two spaces open to the passengers below the waterline, they were the pool and the sauna.

These things are easy to check.
 
Do you think there is a difference between recovering part of a galley from the sea bed and recovering a 15,000 ton ship?

As already posted the Estonia probably could be raised but only in small pieces.


It was 190 km from the Scottish shore and 144m deep. The Ehime Maru was 670 m deep. Compare and contrast to 60 - 80m deep just 38km from a Finnish inhabited island, with all facilities.
 
No, it means water is getting in. Water flooding the car deck would come down through the passenger decks, they are not water tight spaces, they have open stairwells and passageways. Cabins are not watertight.

There aren't any passenger cabins below the waterline. There were only two spaces open to the passengers below the waterline, they were the pool and the sauna.

These things are easy to check.

The car ramp decks had 9 inch (230mm) water barriers at the doors, which during a voyage were accessible only to authorised crew.

Anything below the car deck line is below the water line. You can see from this plan of Viking Sally that there were cabins below this.
 

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It was 190 km from the Scottish shore and 144m deep. The Ehime Maru was 670 m deep. Compare and contrast to 60 - 80m deep just 38km from a Finnish inhabited island, with all facilities.

What do you think the difference in size is between the galley section of an oil rig and the Estonia?

As already posted a number of times, the Ehime Maru was less than 50m in length and 700 grt, not 150 m and over 15.000 grt.
It was not raised.
 
Military Commander Emil Svensson. He advised Carl Bildt, right from Day One.

So he is in charge and gave the orders not to raise the Estonia?

How do you know he advised not to raise the ship?

Why would he be listened to any more than any of the other govt advisors?
 
The car ramp decks had 9 inch (230mm) water barriers at the doors, which during a voyage were accessible only to authorised crew.

Anything below the car deck line is below the water line. You can see from this plan of Viking Sally that there were cabins below this.

Where do you think the waterline is on that plan?
Where do you think the car deck is in relation to the waterline?

I will tell you and you can confirm it by looking at a photograph or plan that includes the waterline.
It is at the top of the bulb, at least 2 meters below the level of the car deck.
There are no passenger cabins below the waterline.
 
The problem isn't that the JAIC was biased or wrong, it just didn't consider anything other than 'it was the bow visor what done it'.

That's a claim that they were biased in favor of the bow visor theory and were therefore likely wrong. You didn't address the point, which was the observation that you have come to the question with preconceptions of who must be biased and who else must be honest and forthright. You seem utterly unwilling to think critically about sources that agree with your beliefs.
 
Notice how precise and detailed the police statements are.

Detail is not a substitute for correctness. Further, can you account for details reported by one officer but not by the other? One officer notes that the bartender started removing bottles from the shelves. The other notes that items fell from the shelves. One notes the reaction and behavior of people while the other does not. One officer notes two distinct heeling events and specifies the directions, while the other merely notes one heeling event and does not specify direction.

Most telling, Officer Fägersten makes a conclusory statement, testifying that the ship "ran against something," when from her vantage point neither she nor anyone else could see what -- if anything -- was hit.

These are incongruities that one expects in eyewitness testimony. But no, for the reasons given, I don't consider these more accurate or reliable than testimony by people in other professions.
 
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As I recall, there is...

Do you actually know? Or are you just making up pseudo-science again?

They are trained to be report verbatim speech without putting a value judgement on it.

I ask again for the third time: are you policeman? Have you trained policeman? I know the answer. I just want to see whether you're honest enough to admit the truth.

Thus, it can be quite amusing to hear police evidence in court when they relate completely po-faced, 'The defendant then said **** off you stupid ****' in the same tone as height age and appearance.

How many criminal trials have you attended in person? Tone of voice is largely immaterial as to whether the witnesses' memories of the events are accurate.
 
Waves of a relatively calm 2m high breaking on a seashore gives a decibel reading of 78db. Workplace safety is not much different from this and a constant 85dB over 24-hours is likely to damage one's hearing.

Workplace safety standards are not a substitute for actually being able to hear and understand people.

So if there was a sudden 2,000 inflow of water into the car deck literally bursting in, the racket would be so rip-roaringly tremendous...

How do you know that? Why do you keep reporting the 2,000(-tonne) inflow of water as a single event when you know that's not the claim?

I don't know if you have ever been to the Niagara Falls but you can hear it well before you even approach it.

I've been to Niagara Falls and I've also been on the deck of a ship during heavy weather. Which one of us is more qualified to compare the two?
 
By their profession, police tend to notice things others might not. For example, the medics in my family have a tendency to call body parts by their medical names, they are not being pretentious, it is just the way they have been trained to think. A fashion designer notices what you are wearing, a keep-fit instructor what one is lacking in, a teacher, where the marks are and spotting the errors.

This statement actually comes closer to the truth than your previous claims. Since you have only a vague memory of whether there's scientific evidence to support your claims, and since you have a demonstrated dislike of scientists who disagree with you, and since I've had to study this for decades as part of my profession, I'll fill you in on the parts you're getting wrong, according to the science.

The myth of the "trained observer" was debunked long ago. No amount of ante hoc training improves observational ability or compensates for memory malleability. There are practical techniques such as recording recalled observations in a fixed medium as soon after the events as possible, but this does not improve the accuracy of reporting for police any more than it does for any other person.

What the science shows conclusively is that people in general, and juries specifically, tend to believe strongly in the proposition that police are better observers and better witnesses than non-police. Police testimony is commonly given greater weight by triers of fact. But of course this is not the same as actually being able to demonstrate greater accuracy. When tested under controlled conditions, police show no better ability to observe and recall events accurately than anyone else.

There is no such thing as a better-trained general observer. What you note about people being drawn to details that pertain to their professions or other areas of experience is confirmed empirically, but only in the context of those professions. And it arises unconsciously, over a long time, as a result of experience and not prior training. A fashion designer noting what you're wearing, where someone else might not, does not translate to being able to observe better what is going on when a ship is sinking. Similarly police officers acquire the ability to note details that relate to criminal behavior, that others might miss. This does not translate to better observational ability than others in all situations. Nor does any of it compensate for memory malleability.

What this means is that in the context of a ship in distress, the ship's crew are far more likely to be reliable witnesses to the behavior of the ship than non-seafarers. There are, of course, academic citations for all this, and I can provide the relevant authors and bodies of work if required. But I fear that they would just suffer the same fate at your vitriolic and vindictive hands as poor Dr. Loftus did when she crossed you.

So no, the science does not confirm your belief that police are generally better observers than anyone else, nor that such a claimed ability is the result of training to that effect. And given the discrepancies in the statements of the two police officers you quoted, which I note above, I think your claim is fairly thoroughly refuted.
 
Police are trained to be observant...

Not a thing that can be done.

...and to write their notes ASAP...

So what is your evidence that the two police officers whose contradictory testimony you reproduced up-thread did that in the case of the Estonia sinking?

...because these will be the factual objective, emotion and judgement-free, facts as read out in court.

It's cute that you believe that police reports are objective and free from emotion or judgment.
 
At least they offered, out of kindness and compassion.

But the question is whether it's a credible offer. Your argument is that all these offers of salvage and/or recovery were suspiciously rejected, insinuating that there was something to hide. That's based on the premise that the offers were legitimate, credible, and that there were no practical, regulatory, or other legitimate reasons why the offers should be rejected. If you're now conceding that the offers were just compassionate responses and not necessarily legitimate offers of service, then the point you wanted to prove by that argument falls flat.
 
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