[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

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Olmstead said:
There's a difference between wanting muscles and wanting to do an activity that will give you muscles.
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Obviously. Very few people want to do work to get a reward, if they could get the reward without the work.

Both men and women want to look attractive. The fact that this means different things for a particular sex/gender doesn't mean that there's a tangible difference in how men and women behave. They're just forced to conform to different standards.
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You are contradicting yourself. Different standards lead to different behavior. You can't meet different standards with the same behavior, you have to behave differently because the standards are different. The fact that you can categorize both as "look attractive" doesn't make it the same.
 
d4m10n said:
"Canadian soccer star Quinn made history, becoming the first out transgender athlete to win an Olympic medal."

https://twitter.com/TheAdvocateMag/status/1423693764267106309
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I find this an odd article, and it seems to really miss the point of a lot of this discussion.

Quinn is a female person who identifies as non-binary, and is playing on an all-female team, in a female competition. That's kind of as expected, regardless of how they identify.

I also find it kind of disrespectful to the rest of the team. It's not like Quinn did the whole thing by themself, there were several other females involved in the win who also got medals.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Quinn is a female person who identifies as non-binary, and is playing on an all-female team, in a female competition. That's kind of as expected, regardless of how they identify.
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This makes sense for those of us who believe sports are segregated by sex (or by SRY gene activation) but for those who think sport is segregated by gender, this is something new and interesting.

Personally, I think the sex/gender distinction is falling out of fashion in activist circles, personal identity is all that matters going forward, even on previously objective questions.
 
Rape Crisis Scotland has some... interesting positions.

Their current CEO, Midrul Wadhwa, is a transwoman from India, who does not have a GRC, and who is placed in a role that is explicitly reserved for a female. That has caused some outcry, some of which is undoubtedly more antagonistic than need be.

On the other hand, rape shelters are massively used by females, because females are the primary victims of sexual crimes (over 90%), and males are the primary perpetrators of sexual crimes (about 98%). Over the last couple of years, many rape and domestic violence shelters in Scotland (and other countries) have lost funding and government support because they are single-sex, rather than single-gender facilities, and they do not unquestionably allow transwomen. Most of them have historically allowed transwomen entrance on a case-by-case basis, but not as an entitlement. Activists have campaigned to get several shelters shut down, or to convince local and national governments to withdraw necessary funding support from them. This leaves a huge number of females without access to resources when they've been victimized or abused.

Wadhwa recently gave an interview in which they said the following with respect to female survivors of rape and sexual trauma who are uncomfortable and distressed by the presence of males:

But I think the other thing is that sexual violence happens to bigoted people as well. And so, you know, it is not discerning crime. But these spaces are also for you. But if you bring unacceptable beliefs that are discriminatory in nature, we will begin to work with you on your journey of recovery from trauma. But please also expect to be challenged on your prejudices, because how can you heal from trauma and build a new relationship with your trauma, because you can't forget, and you can't go back to life before traumatic incident or traumatic incidents. And some of us never, ever had a life before traumatic incidents. But if you have to reframe your trauma, I think it is important as part of that reframing, having a more positive relationship with it, where it becomes a story that empowers you and allows you to go and do other more beautiful things with your life, you also have to rethink your relationship with prejudice. Otherwise, you can't really, in my view, recover from trauma and I think that's a very important message that I am often discussing with my colleagues that in various places. Because you know, to me, therapy is political, and it isn’t always seen as that.
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Wadhwa released a follow-up statement, attempting to clarify. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that they are sincere in their desire to help females. Still a bit put-off by their prior objection to giving rape victims the right to specify the sex of their examiner though. Anyway, well written.

https://edinburghrapecrisis.wixsite.com/ercc/post/statement

I still find a few of the statements in there to be... troublesome? I grant that Wadhwa is earnest and sincere in their desire to help, but I also think they have a blind spot. It seems like something important, something fundamental, might be missing from these statements:

In order for us to create a safe space for survivors it also needs to be a safe space for staff and volunteers, where everyone feels valued, safe and respected. That must be a priority if we are to be an ethical service provider for all survivors using our service, as well as an employer, taking seriously our role in creating a fairer society; this would be the case for any prejudice experienced be it racism, classism, homophobia, anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, or transphobia.

...

If we want to be a truly feminist organisation, we too need to be an anti-racist organisation, we need to be an organisation that stands up to homophobia, ableism, classism and yes, transphobia.
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Another item of note is a phone app in the US that will deliver prescriptions for hormone therapy from their doctors. Their marketing schema is about finding the "right transition approach" for their patients, but nothing at all about making sure that transition itself is an appropriate response.

I'm honestly baffled. These are medicines that have serious side effects, many of which are permanent, and they introduce health risks. I can't think of any other situation in which the medical community allows patients to self-diagnose and instantly gain access to compounds that put the patient at risk.

Plume

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Emily's Cat said:
Wadhwa released a follow-up statement, attempting to clarify. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that they are sincere in their desire to help females. Still a bit put-off by their prior objection to giving rape victims the right to specify the sex of their examiner though. Anyway, well written.

https://edinburghrapecrisis.wixsite.com/ercc/post/statement

I still find a few of the statements in there to be... troublesome? I grant that Wadhwa is earnest and sincere in their desire to help, but I also think they have a blind spot. It seems like something important, something fundamental, might be missing from these statements:
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Takes balls to say "that rape victim is making me feel uncomfortable" ...
 
Joe Random said:
Takes balls to say "that rape victim is making me feel uncomfortable" ...
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It is refreshing when people stand up to these TERFS trying to make rape and domestic violence shelters inaccessible to trans women, a demographic that is disproportionately victims of such violence.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Wadhwa released a follow-up statement, attempting to clarify. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that they are sincere in their desire to help females. Still a bit put-off by their prior objection to giving rape victims the right to specify the sex of their examiner though. Anyway, well written.

https://edinburghrapecrisis.wixsite.com/ercc/post/statement

I still find a few of the statements in there to be... troublesome? I grant that Wadhwa is earnest and sincere in their desire to help, but I also think they have a blind spot.
It seems like something important, something fundamental, might be missing from these statements:
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What's missing is the truth that somebody who was sexually assaulted and wants a female counsellor objects to a transwoman as a counsellor because the transwoman is male, not because they are transgender. But then that is also missing from virtually every accusation of transphobia ever made.
 
Joe Random said:
Takes balls to say "that rape victim is making me feel uncomfortable" ...
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Does it really? The conventional wisdom is that it's reasonable for women who have been raped to feel uncomfortable around men. Saying, "but I identify as a woman!" doesn't really help with that.

It's the same kind of problem as sexual attraction. It really doesn't matter how you identify yourself. Your partner's attraction depends entirely on how they identify you. If a lesbian sees a penis in the bedroom, telling her, "it's okay, honey, that's just my girldick" isn't going to magically make her sexually excited for you.

Though, she's probably not going to be in the bedroom with you in the first place, since she probably has picked up on enough of your secondary sex characteristics to not be attracted to you in the first place.

It's more difficult for rape victims under certain proposed policies, since they can't really opt out of being uncomfortable with your male presence, without also leaving the shelter.

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There's also the question of policies prohibiting rape victims from having a sex preference in the caregivers that are working with them. That's another serious problem that your wisecrack completely fails to address, even in a mean-spirited way.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
It is refreshing when people stand up to these TERFS trying to make rape and domestic violence shelters inaccessible to trans women, a demographic that is disproportionately victims of such violence.
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Do you believe women should be legally permitted to run shelters which only service female victims of male violence?

Would it be unfair to say that you hope to abolish or at least modify all spaces/leagues/etc. designed solely for people who've always been female, in favor of alternative inclusion criteria?
 
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Elaedith said:
What's missing is the truth that somebody who was sexually assaulted and wants a female counsellor objects to a transwoman as a counsellor because the transwoman is male, not because they are transgender. But then that is also missing from virtually every accusation of transphobia ever made.
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That goes without saying. It was more the glaring hole where sexism isn't included in any of the issues that a person who considers themselves a feminist and is involved with rape and domestic violence shelters feels need to be addressed.
 
theprestige said:
Does it really? The conventional wisdom is that it's reasonable for women who have been raped to feel uncomfortable around men. Saying, "but I identify as a woman!" doesn't really help with that.
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:boxedin: I really think you misread JoeRandom's post.

Joe Random said:
Takes balls to say "that rape victim is making me feel uncomfortable" ...
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Emily's Cat said:
: boxedin : I really think you misread JoeRandom's post.
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I saw and discarded the pun, amusing as it is. I read the rest of it in the context of a female rape victim being uncomfortable about sheltering with a male rape victim, on account of their maleness.

I honestly don't think rape shelter caregivers should be talking about how transwomen make them uncomfortable. Unless perhaps it's a women for women shelter, and some of the caregivers are there precisely because they're uncomfortable around and chose this work because it allows them to work exclusively with women.
 
This posting on Jerry Coyne's blog is covering a potential issue with the key problem with the whole idea of basing someones gender identity simply on their say so.


I find that writing about transgender issues is difficult, for I want to both adhere to liberal tenets that respect people’s identities ensure moral and legal equality as far as possible, yet also ensure a kind of fairness that comes from realizing that while, for gender labels, a “transwoman is a woman and a transman is a man”, there are a couple of exceptions because transitioning involves modifying one’s biological (natal) sex. My solution has been pointing out a few areas in which inequality of treatment of trans- verus cis-people is useful in the interests of fairness (some sports participation, prison occupancy, rape counseling, halfway houses, and the like), but to hew to equality in all other areas (pronoun use, bathroom occupancy, etc.) But even carving out a few exceptions gets one called a “transphobe”. Well, I can live with the opprobrium so long as I think I’m right.


The latest flare-up in this matter involves the transfer of prisoners from men’s to women’s prisons, and vice versa...
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https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2021/08/12/the-transgender-prison-dilemma/
 
theprestige said:
I saw and discarded the pun, amusing as it is. I read the rest of it in the context of a female rape victim being uncomfortable about sheltering with a male rape victim, on account of their maleness.

I honestly don't think rape shelter caregivers should be talking about how transwomen make them uncomfortable. Unless perhaps it's a women for women shelter, and some of the caregivers are there precisely because they're uncomfortable around and chose this work because it allows them to work exclusively with women.
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<Al Swearengen>
Let's leave it all alone. I'm stupidest when I try to be funny.
</Al Swearengen>

This was my point : Wadhwa made the comment that it wanted a "...safe space for staff and volunteers...", standing up to "...yes, transphobia.". IMO, the feelings of a male who wants to be seen as a woman feeling bad because a female rape victim didn't want to be tended to by a male should be of tertiary concern at best. "You won't let me and my girlcock tend to your rape wounds and that makes me feel bad" is a phrase deserving nothing but scorn.

Carry on.
 
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