The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-Opened

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Vixen said:
The irony is that whilst nobody in naval circles or the survivors groups, including marine claims investigators, engineers, architects and investigative journalists believes the JAIC report and a new investigation has opened, a bunch of people claiming to be sceptics prefer to believe the original bunkum.



Ask yourself how come Germany isn't buying it? Is it just because they feel nationalist towards Meyer Werft just because they are German? They declined to sign the Estonia Gravesite Treaty. Why? Because they are international waters. Why did the UK sign, when it is nowhere near the Baltic to even patrol it.
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Is it your claim that all of these people believe Estonia was sunk by accidental collision with an escorting submarine?
 
Vixen said:
The irony is that whilst nobody in naval circles or the survivors groups, including marine claims investigators, engineers, architects and investigative journalists believes the JAIC report and a new investigation has opened, a bunch of people claiming to be sceptics prefer to believe the original bunkum.
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I'm sure a list of similarly-described people could be said to question the 9/11 Commission's report. I'll bet they're even some of the same people.

No idea why you think anybody should be impressed, though.

I wonder if any of those people believe that a lawyer who publically makes false statements and deliberately runs a bogus investigation to help a foreign government he is secretly working for could reasonably be described as having any integrity.
 
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The initial investigation took a few years. Doesn't matter what some politician said, only what the evidence indicated. The families have been speaking out of both sides of their mouths claiming cover-up on while suing the French company which certified the Estonia as safe for operations.

The entire affair stinks. They could and should have made the effort to recover the bodies instead of covering part of the ship in cement. By the way, if there was radioactive cargo inside the cement won't block it entirely.

Right now there are two research ships at the Estonia site conducting a new inspection of the ship. We will have their updated findings next spring.
 
Vixen said:
Escorting it.
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Why would it be 'escorting it'?

If it was escorting it why was it on the surface ramming it when a sub is designed to operate under water where it is faster and in no danger of ramming anything?
 
Vixen said:
From the report:

JAIC Report

I didn't claim the crew did anything. I said if you are hired as an investigator to a public disaster, at the initial stage you can't just ignore the possibility of criminal sabotage, and that includes by the crew, or even the passengers. It's poor show to go straight to 'oh it was a poor design of bolts in the bow visor'.
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If the ship was listing how long do you think the lashings would have held?
 
Vixen said:
Ask yourself: are generals, admirals and wing commanders elected?
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Is that an answer? they are appointed by the politicians.

You seemed to imply that the generals in Sweden are telling the the PM what to do.
 
Vixen said:
If there was cargo on board in the form of Russian military stuff, for example stuff loaded on trucks (doesn't even have to be a Soviet truck just an ordinary army truck designed to carry armaments hardware) and the ship sank six hours into its journey, Bildt is one of the first to be informed outwith the coastguards and rescue services, and he immediately panics and puts out a press release the cause of the sinking was something technical and he knows something has gone wrong. Fact is, the divers were more interested in finding a briefcase belonging to Captain Andresson (probably an old stalinist who was trained at a Russian naval school) yet astonishingly, not in identifying who the three bodies on the bridge are, (the captain and his first and second officers in uniform that would identify them) tells you what the captain had in his possession was of great alacrity for the Swedish navy divers to find, going to the wrong cabin the first time round.

Putin was the recent head of the KGB as of the fall of the USSR. Who knows what Anderrson had in his briefcase that was so vital to find and how come Andresson didn't take the May Day call? Whatever it was, we might not know unless it is declassified.
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So the captain was working for the Russians?
Sweden thought th Russians had sunk it even though they knew it was their Sub that was supposedly escorting it?

Or are we back to the crew doing it?

make your mind up.
 
Vixen said:
Same reason anyone gets an escort. Probably in the bodyguard sense. Possibly in a policing sense (detective). I don't know.

Police escort football coaches. They escort government ministers. They might escort a prison van taking someone to court.

It might be a submarine monitoring movement. It might be a rogue submarine for sale by the Russians to an inexperienced third world buyers.

It is only my opinion that it was likely a Swedish or British submarine due to who is covering it up, if there was indeed a submarine collision.

That doesn't rule out another scenario,
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Why would you use a sub to escort it? Why not a Frigate?

Now it's some 'rogue Russian' submarine?
 
Vixen said:
The irony is that whilst nobody in naval circles or the survivors groups, including marine claims investigators, engineers, architects and investigative journalists believes the JAIC report and a new investigation has opened, a bunch of people claiming to be sceptics prefer to believe the original bunkum.

Ask yourself how come Germany isn't buying it? Is it just because they feel nationalist towards Meyer Werft just because they are German? They declined to sign the Estonia Gravesite Treaty. Why? Because they are international waters. Why did the UK sign, when it is nowhere near the Baltic to even patrol it.
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Has the German government suggested a Swedish/ Royal Navy/ Rogue Russian submarine rammed the ferry and sank it?
 
Vixen said:
I'll bet he smoked Senior Service though, or Capstans.
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My dad was a Merchant marine officer for over 40 years. I don't think he wore his blues once while on watch. It was for cocktail parties or VIP visits.
He certainly wouldn't wear it in a storm.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
A search with the periscope is done before surfacing. If a ship is in very close the sonar will not detect it as an active ping will give a 'simultaneous echo' and not be detected and passive sonar will be swamped by the sound of the boat itself.

They can move swiftly under water and nuclear boats can do around 20kt on the surface and more than 30ky submerged. Diesel electric boats like the ones used by Sweden can do around 12kt on the surface and around 20kt submerged. In 6 meter waves considerably less on the surface.

Not ideal for shadowing a ship that can make the same speed.
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I'm boggled why there would even need to be such a "brutalist" approach to reconnaissance in the first place.

I mean other than to shoehorn some kind of credible narrative for a wild-eyed theory about a submarine collision.
 
RolandRat said:
I think someone a few pages back asked the question why didn't "they" just chuck the stuff on this secretive sub that was allegedly shadowing the ferry. Did this get an answer?
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Maybe too large? Maybe the stuff on the ferry was illegal? A contaminant? (Note how they wanted to encase it in concrete.)

Maybe it was just an ordinary patrol submarine.

Maybe a rogue one. The Finns and the Swedes have caught Russian submarines schlepping about in their waters before.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
So the captain was working for the Russians?
Sweden thought th Russians had sunk it even though they knew it was their Sub that was supposedly escorting it?

Or are we back to the crew doing it?

make your mind up.
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Yeah I'm getting a bit lost too. There has been allegations of it being a Swedish sub, Russian sub, British sub. Rogue KGB agents, rogue crew members planting explosives.
 
Vixen said:
Maybe too large? Maybe the stuff on the ferry was illegal? A contaminant? (Note how they wanted to encase it in concrete.)

Maybe it was just an ordinary patrol submarine.

Maybe a rogue one. The Finns and the Swedes have caught Russian submarines schlepping about in their waters before.
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The whole enterprise would have been "illegal". If it was a contaminant, exposing passengers to it seems a bit risky. If they came down sick they'd be examined.

Can you nail down exactly what your theory is please.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
How is it 'common knowledge'?
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The sound level of the Baltic at 2m height waves (calm conditions*) is 78dB. The level at which your hearing will be damaged within a minute is 115dB. The threshold safe level - for example, in the workplace or DIY work - is 85dB over 24 hours.

Thus, you can see immediately that waves of a height between 6m - 8m as happened on the accident night would give a decibel level far higher than at calm levels. Survivors said they could not hear what other people were shouting on deck. Bear in mind, decibels is not a linear measure but an exponential one. In other words, for every 3 decibel increase, the intensity of sound doubles, as it is a measure of magnitude (rather like a telescope lens). Thus, water pouring into the car deck at 200 tonnes/per second all on one go into clanking metal would be deafening. The Herald of Free Enterprise capsized virtually straight away so if it was the case then it should have turned turtle within about five minutes.

*The waters of the Baltic are relatively shallow, between 300m to 30 metres deep, with the unlevel seabed giving rise to unexpected currents. Seas have higher waves than oceans in a storm for that reason (Pacific = 'calm').

Higher waves = louder noise.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Yes you were shown to be in error but you are ignoring that an doing a 'fringe reset' on it.
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It's amazing, isn't it?
Usually you only get a fringe reset after about 10-20 pages of 'discussion'.

Here it is about every new session, where the OP is present.
 
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