Cont: Trump’s Coup - Part 2

[Stacyhs]

Absolutely and Kentucky was mostly a purple state until Clinton got rid of Tobacco then it turned solid red over night.

I'm curious about your statement regarding Clinton and Tobacco. I've never heard of a connection. How did he do that?

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

I'm curious about your statement regarding Clinton and Tobacco. I've never heard of a connection. How did he do that?

He ended the price Support system and the Allotment programs.
The Growers Cooperative then went bankrupt, without a price support.

 

[Armitage72]

I'm curious about your statement regarding Clinton and Tobacco. I've never heard of a connection. How did he do that?

According to this article from 1998, Kentucky didn't like legislation that increased restrictions on tobacco in an effort to reduce teen and child smoking.

CARROLLTON, Ky. — President Clinton traveled to the tobacco belt Thursday to make a case for landmark legislation likely to shrink the region’s lifeblood industry, and he was greeted by an avalanche of anxiety from farmers and employees of tobacco companies.

Tobacco farmer Mattie Mack gave the president an earful, telling him that tobacco had paid a lifetime of bills for her family and that she opposes the legislation.

“We shouldn’t be penalized on account of children smoking,” said Mack, who raised four children and 38 foster children. “It’s parents’ responsibility to teach their children not to smoke, not tobacco farmers’ responsibility not to grow the golden leaf.”

Legislation that passed a key Senate committee last week would impose sweeping new costs and regulations on the tobacco industry, raise the cost of a pack of cigarettes by $1.10 over five years and decrease demand for the tobacco that Mack and tens of thousands of farmers like her grow.

The president and many lawmakers from both parties in Congress support the legislation as a vehicle to counteract the surge in teen smoking.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Okay. So?

It's the same problem I've had with regards to coal miners for pretty much every national election in my lifetime.

Yeah it's probably "true" (for certain values of true) that Hillary Clinton lost Pennsylvania (and by extension a major part of why she lost the Presidency) because she didn't kiss Coal's ass enough and slipped up a time or two and talked about getting rid of coal.

Despite getting rid of coal being a great idea. Great ideas that will cost jobs are still great ideas. What are supposed to just not improve anything ever because people have jobs doing it the old way?

"Oh noes you can't say that, you'll lose the steam powered horse and buggy telegraph repairman vote" is such... a stupid but huge part of our politics.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Okay. So?

It's the same problem I've had with regards to coal miners for pretty much every national election in my lifetime.

Yeah it's probably "true" (for certain values of true) that Hillary Clinton lost Pennsylvania (and by extension a major part of why she lost the Presidency) because she didn't kiss Coal's ass enough and slipped up a time or two and talked about getting rid of coal.

Despite getting rid of coal being a great idea. Great ideas that will cost jobs are still great ideas. What are supposed to just not improve anything ever because people have jobs doing it the old way?

"Oh noes you can't say that, you'll lose the steam powered horse and buggy telegraph repairman vote" is such... a stupid but huge part of our politics.

Several states flipped because of tobacco that's how the Democrats lost the tobacco belt.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Several states flipped because of tobacco that's how the Democrats lost the tobacco belt.

Yeah and that's stupid.

If "Big leaves that grow from the ground to smoke" are the one issue you vote on, you're an idiot. And yes even if it's your job.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Yeah and that's stupid.

If "Big leaves that grow from the ground to smoke" are the one issue you vote on, you're an idiot. And yes even if it's your job.

It cost many Familes their small family farms, Tobacco paid the property taxes and provided a dependable winter income.if you loose your home, you definitely remember why.

 

[JoeMorgue]

It cost many Familes their small family farms, Tobacco paid the property taxes and provided a dependable winter income.if you loose your home, you definitely remember why.

Yeah people who made leaded paints and lawn darts lost their jobs too. Cry me a river.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Yeah people who made leaded paints and lawn darts lost their jobs too. Cry me a river.

Nothing though has Replaced tobacco, and it is still grown in Kentucky and sold here all they did was move production from the little family farm to the big corporate farmers.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

... Yeah it's probably "true" (for certain values of true) that Hillary Clinton lost Pennsylvania (and by extension a major part of why she lost the Presidency) because she didn't kiss Coal's ass enough and slipped up a time or two and talked about getting rid of coal. ...

Or like a lot of voters Dump influences with gaslighting, Clinton failed to counter the soundbite used against her. The actual statement included saying how the miners needed to be retrained for other jobs.

When faced with a gaslighter like Dump, addressing lie after lie was, still is, and will be in the future a serious problem the Democrats need to be a lot better at countering.

When you can say anything at all like Dump does and a huge number of voters cannot distinguish fact from lie, that's a tough nut to crack.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Or like a lot of voters Dump influences with gaslighting, Clinton failed to counter the soundbite used against her. The actual statement included saying how the miners needed to be retrained for other jobs.

When faced with a gaslighter like Dump, addressing lie after lie was, still is, and will be in the future a serious problem the Democrats need to be a lot better at countering.

When you can say anything at all like Dump does and a huge number of voters cannot distinguish fact from lie, that's a tough nut to crack.

So true Democrats could learn a lot from the Lincoln Project.

 

[Segnosaur]

Or like a lot of voters Dump influences with gaslighting, Clinton failed to counter the soundbite used against her. The actual statement included saying how the miners needed to be retrained for other jobs.

When faced with a gaslighter like Dump, addressing lie after lie was, still is, and will be in the future a serious problem the Democrats need to be a lot better at countering.

I think the problem might not be so much the democrats as it is the news media as a whole.

Granted, Trump supporters will exist in their own little information bubble, watching their Fox news and swallowing everything Trump says. They are largely unreachable. But, they don't make up enough of the electorate to guarantee a win.

Part of the problem in the 2016 election is the inability of the news media to call out Trump (at least not properly). In the interest of appearing unbiased, they would broadcast many of his lies unfiltered (and when they did point out that he was lying, it was often done just as some after-discussion.) So anyone who was sitting on the fence might have ended up voting Republican (or people leaning democrat might have decided to stay home election day).

If the media decides "lets address Trump's lies at the time he is making them", much of his power goes away.

 

[Armitage72]

The actual statement included saying how the miners needed to be retrained for other jobs.

That ran into "Why should I train to do something different? I'm a coal miner. My daddy was a coal miner. My granddaddy was a coal miner. My great-granddaddy was a coal miner. I'll be a coal miner until the day I die."
Trump even made fun of the idea of a miner training to work on electronics.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I think the problem might not be so much the democrats as it is the news media as a whole.

Granted, Trump supporters will exist in their own little information bubble, watching their Fox news and swallowing everything Trump says. They are largely unreachable. But, they don't make up enough of the electorate to guarantee a win.

Part of the problem in the 2016 election is the inability of the news media to call out Trump (at least not properly). In the interest of appearing unbiased, they would broadcast many of his lies unfiltered (and when they did point out that he was lying, it was often done just as some after-discussion.) So anyone who was sitting on the fence might have ended up voting Republican (or people leaning democrat might have decided to stay home election day).

If the media decides "lets address Trump's lies at the time he is making them", much of his power goes away.

Controlling or at least influencing the media narrative is the underlying issue. Of course the media went with the GOP talking point sound bite. The GOP is much better at controlling the narrative.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

That ran into "Why should I train to do something different? I'm a coal miner. My daddy was a coal miner. My granddaddy was a coal miner. My great-granddaddy was a coal miner. I'll be a coal miner until the day I die."
Trump even made fun of the idea of a miner training to work on electronics.

None of that matters. The incriminating cherry picked out of context part of what Clinton actually said was pushed and not countered. Just like everything else Dump pushed, if you can lie about any and everything that is hard to beat.

But the Democrats could be more effective if they hired more Madison Ave types in their campaigns to counter Dump's skill at lying.

 

[Bob001]

None of that matters. The incriminating cherry picked out of context part of what Clinton actually said was pushed and not countered. Just like everything else Dump pushed, if you can lie about any and everything that is hard to beat.

But the Democrats could be more effective if they hired more Madison Ave types in their campaigns to counter Dump's skill at lying.

But Clinton gave up a lot. She didn't have to say "We're going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business," as if it was a campaign promise to Silicon Valley donors. Nobody heard anything else after that. She could have said something like "You know the coal industry is shrinking. You've seen it yourselves. Here's what I'm going to do to bring new industry and good new jobs to West Virginia." But she didn't.
https://www.al.com/news/2016/03/hillary_clinton_were_going_to.html

You can't blame the opposition for taking advantages where it finds them. Someone who has spent her entire life in politics shouldn't be making mistakes like that.

 

[autumn1971]

I’ve got it!

Republican votes should simply be counted as three-fifths of an actual human’s vote.

They can’t possibly object to that!

 

[gnome]

How can gerrymandering impact the presidential election?

If they shift to a system where their state legislatures determine or can override what slate of EC to send, which it appears some are trying to do, the gerrymandered districts come into play. Not only can an artificially entrenched minority run the legislature there, then they can also choose their state's votes for president.

 

[gnome]

But Clinton gave up a lot. She didn't have to say "We're going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business," as if it was a campaign promise to Silicon Valley donors. Nobody heard anything else after that. She could have said something like "You know the coal industry is shrinking. You've seen it yourselves. Here's what I'm going to do to bring new industry and good new jobs to West Virginia." But she didn't.
https://www.al.com/news/2016/03/hillary_clinton_were_going_to.html

You can't blame the opposition for taking advantages where it finds them. Someone who has spent her entire life in politics shouldn't be making mistakes like that.

This is what I keep saying. No, the hype around her comments wasn't fair. A candidate needs to be prepared that someone might twist their words unfairly, and choose better messaging in the first place. This is something possible to be better at, and the Democrats drop the ball on this a lot.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

But Clinton gave up a lot. She didn't have to say "We're going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business," as if it was a campaign promise to Silicon Valley donors. Nobody heard anything else after that. She could have said something like "You know the coal industry is shrinking. You've seen it yourselves. Here's what I'm going to do to bring new industry and good new jobs to West Virginia." But she didn't.
https://www.al.com/news/2016/03/hillary_clinton_were_going_to.html

You can't blame the opposition for taking advantages where it finds them. Someone who has spent her entire life in politics shouldn't be making mistakes like that.

Not getting into this, it is going off topic and we've discussed it ad nauseum in multiple other threads.

Bottom line, the Democrats need to get better at countering pure lies Dump cranks out daily/hourly.