The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-Opened

[Reformed Offlian]

Another assumption/assertation without any backup. The famous Andrea Doria, collided with another ship. Took 11 hours to sink. Plenty of ships have had a collision and made it back to port.

Ah, but the ship that rammed into the AD had its bow shorn off, and *it* didn't sink, now did it? DID IT?!

Oh, and what was the name of that ship? Stockholm! Coincidence? I don't think so!

Checkmate, JAIC-ites!

 

[JayUtah]

The Swedes were terrified of SYKE's divers going down and seeing anything...

What is your evidence that this was the motive?

IN the end it abandoned the concrete idea as the Finns were laughing, as the seabed clay is like custard and it would have immediately sunk.

A few days ago the seabed was characterized as hard. Which is it?

A Finnish team examined the bow visor for traces of explosives and found none. It carried out many of the autopsies. It wasn't involved in the politics.

Publicly opposing the policies of another nearby nation is not being involved in the politics?

 

[Reformed Offlian]

The Finns never played along.

They played along with JAIC's investigation and findings. They put their signatures on the final report.

A Finnish team examined the bow visor for traces of explosives and found none. It carried out many of the autopsies. It wasn't involved in the politics.

Exactly my point. The Finns would have to have been involved in the politics in order for the cover up to happen; it would have required their active cooperation. What do you think the "J" in "JAIC" stands for?

 

[Vixen]

Another assumption/assertation without any backup. The famous Andrea Doria, collided with another ship. Took 11 hours to sink. Plenty of ships have had a collision and made it back to port.

Maybe that is why it doesn't make the top 12 chart of 'time taken to sink'. M/S Estonia is at no. 8, ahead of even Wilhelm Gustloff, a much heavier ship with more than seven times the number of passengers and crew.

I hope the penny is now beginning to drop as to how incredibly fast Estonia went down.

 

[Vixen]

They played along with JAIC's investigation and findings. They put their signatures on the final report.




Exactly my point. The Finns would have to have been involved in the politics in order for the cover up to happen; it would have required their active cooperation. What do you think the "J" in "JAIC" stands for?

The Estonians never agreed with it. Their foreign minister resigned. They did their own report in 2006.

 

[Vixen]

Ah, but the ship that rammed into the AD had its bow shorn off, and *it* didn't sink, now did it? DID IT?!

Oh, and what was the name of that ship? Stockholm! Coincidence? I don't think so!

Checkmate, JAIC-ites!

Do keep up. The AD didn't make it to the list of 'fastest sinking' because, hello, it took eleven hours. The Estonia took 35 minutes, whilst the Wilhelm Gustloff torpedoed THREE times, in three different places, 5K tonnes heavier, seven times the number of passengers, took 50 minutes.


The Estonia sank faster than a torpedoed ship.

 

[erwinl]

The Taiping was a steamer carrying 1,000 refugees fleeing China, grossly overpacked. It collided with a smaller cargo ship. We do not know how long it took to sink but we can fairly confidently say it was very quickly, having had a collision, as with other ships involved in a collision.

The Eastland was a ship that sank in a river, so not maritime. It lay on its side and never sank completely due to the shallow waters. Therefore, like the Herald of Free Enterprise or even the Costa Concordia we cannot state it took X time to sink to the bottom of the sea or ocean, as it was only partially submerged.

Had the Eastland been in deep sea, it would certainly have sunk to the bottom quite quickly thanks to the owners extensively using concrete to repair it. That certainly is different from the bow visor falling off, I'll grant you that.

What’s your problem with using concrete as repair material?

Edit: I see this question has been raised by JayUtah as well.

 

[Myriad]

I hope the penny is now beginning to drop as to how incredibly fast Estonia went down.

One might say, she sank like Estonia.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

The Estonians never agreed with it.

The findings of the JAIC were unanimous.

Their foreign minister resigned. They did their own report in 2006.

Did that report say it was a submarine?

ETA. Also, what specifically do you mean by "their foreign minster resigned" Ilves was foreign minister when the JAIC final report came out. He didn't resign until a year later, so that he could run for office on his own ticket.

 

[Vixen]

What is your evidence that this was the motive?



A few days ago the seabed was characterized as hard. Which is it?



Publicly opposing the policies of another nearby nation is not being involved in the politics?

The sea bed where the Estonia lies is on a gradient of 30°. There is a ridge along which the upside down bridge sits. The part on a gradient is moraine clay which is very hard (Arikas says it broke his drill) the lower part is on this soft clay.

 

[Vixen]

They played along with JAIC's investigation and findings. They put their signatures on the final report.




Exactly my point. The Finns would have to have been involved in the politics in order for the cover up to happen; it would have required their active cooperation. What do you think the "J" in "JAIC" stands for?

Finland had a lawyer called Kari Lehtola who was in charge. He was like Kekkonen, a master of diplomacy and cover up, careful never to upset the bear next door. He was an oleaginous character (d. 2019) fall of niceties dropping from his smiling mouth.

 

[lobosrul5]

Maybe that is why it doesn't make the top 12 chart of 'time taken to sink'. M/S Estonia is at no. 8, ahead of even Wilhelm Gustloff, a much heavier ship with more than seven times the number of passengers and crew.

I hope the penny is now beginning to drop as to how incredibly fast Estonia went down.

I wish the penny would drop for you that maybe Estonia sank faster than ships sunk by collision or torpedo, because she sank due to a different reason.

Thats of course aside from the that fact that list is very small. What difference does it make if Estonia sank relatively fast, though not by a large factor, compared to 9 other vessels picked only because of large loss of life?? If compared to all ship sinkings in total, you'll find some very fast ones.

Ie, the Edmund Fitzgerald is estimated to have sunk in no more than 10 minutes, for example. Might actually be somewhat relevant to the Estonia since it was probably a buckling cargo hatch letting in a tremendous amount of water that sank her. She wasn't a passenger vessel so casualties were low, even though all hands were lost.

 

[Vixen]

The findings of the JAIC were unanimous.



Did that report say it was a submarine?

ETA. Also, what specifically do you mean by "their foreign minster resigned" Ilves was foreign minister when the JAIC final report came out. He didn't resign until a year later, so that he could run for office on his own ticket.

The old Russian joke about resigning 'for health reasons' - the Yeltsin excuse, on a par with the British politicians' stock, 'wanting to spend more time with my family'.

There are usually two reasons a high-up minister resigns: the official reason and the real reason.

 

[JayUtah]

The sea bed where the Estonia lies is on a gradient of 30°. There is a ridge along which the upside down bridge sits. The part on a gradient is moraine clay which is very hard (Arikas says it broke his drill) the lower part is on this soft clay.

Okay that seems like a reasonable conclusion then. What about the Swedes' motives? Where's that evidence?

 

[malbui]

Hang on hang on hang on.

What if the accident was caused by something similar to the Tunguska Event, some massive piece of space debris plunging through the Earth's atmosphere, burning up as it went but leaving enough material to plough into the side of the ship and cause it to sink?

Obviously there's no evidence whatsoever to support this hypothesis but surely it all would have been covered up by the CIA, MI6, KGB, UAE, IMF and PwC.

 

[lobosrul5]

Hang on hang on hang on.

What if the accident was caused by something similar to the Tunguska Event, some massive piece of space debris plunging through the Earth's atmosphere, burning up as it went but leaving enough material to plough into the side of the ship and cause it to sink?

Obviously there's no evidence whatsoever to support this hypothesis but surely it all would have been covered up by the CIA, MI6, KGB, UAE, IMF and PwC.

Maybe a meteorite hit the bow, which is what caused the ramp to come down. I mean there is like a 1 in a quintillion chance or something, right?

 

[Vixen]

I wish the penny would drop for you that maybe Estonia sank faster than ships sunk by collision or torpedo, because she sank due to a different reason.

Thats of course aside from the that fact that list is very small. What difference does it make if Estonia sank relatively fast, though not by a large factor, compared to 9 other vessels picked only because of large loss of life?? If compared to all ship sinkings in total, you'll find some very fast ones.

Ie, the Edmund Fitzgerald is estimated to have sunk in no more than 10 minutes, for example. Might actually be somewhat relevant to the Estonia since it was probably a buckling cargo hatch letting in a tremendous amount of water that sank her. She wasn't a passenger vessel so casualties were low, even though all hands were lost.

I stuck to ships of a similar category as cargo ships have different trims and different superstructures. If we were t include all sea vessels, where would it end? That rowing boat Aunty Philomena overturned but sank as she was so obese that her clinging on made it sink in zippo minutes or maybe Uncle Jethsopath when his jet ski's crossed paths with a behemoth leviathan and alas he is no more and the speedboat dragging him along took seven hours to sink due to a small leak.

Re the Edmund Fitzgerald:

She was located in deep water on November 14, 1975, by a U.S. Navy aircraft detecting magnetic anomalies, and found soon afterwards to be in two large pieces.

Wiki

 

[lobosrul5]

I stuck to ships of a similar category as cargo ships have different trims and different superstructures. If we were t include all sea vessels, where would it end? That rowing boat Aunty Philomena overturned but sank as she was so obese that her clinging on made it sink in zippo minutes or maybe Uncle Jethsopath when his jet ski's crossed paths with a behemmoth leviathan and alas he is no more and the speedboat dragging him along took seven hours to sink due to a small leak.

Except the passenger liners on your list are of a very different design than a RORO car ferry.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

The Swedes were terrified ...

How did their terror manifest itself?

 

[carlitos]

One might say, she sank like Estonia.