Old Randi article on Geller lawsuit

statisticool said:
I'm not interested in tangents, but in seeing examples of the boxes that have magic tricks on them, supposedly like what Geller does, that have supposedly fooled scientists.
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Why do you need to see the examples of the boxes, if you are not interested in comparing them with what Geller does?

And you are definitely not interested, since you have refused to educate yourself.

It's just another attack on Randi from you.
 
CFLarsen said:
What did Geller do when tested by the scientists that is not comparable to the tricks on the back of the cereal boxes?
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Plenty of stuff.

Lets look at the opinions of some professional magicians, shall we?

http://www.zem.demon.co.uk/maug.htm

The Society of American Magicians, The demonstrations by Mr. Geller are based upon the use of various magical techniques, including sleight-of-hand and misdirection, which the skilled Mr. Geller has honed to considerable accomplishment. He has demonstrated substantial showmanship in his representations.

Jerry Schnepp, president of the St. Louis-based International Brotherhood of Magicians. "In my opinion, he's a good magician, and it never goes beyond that.


Paul Daniels (famous English conjurer) "But he is a great showman. I don't know where you draw the line. I mean if he's a con-artist to what extent is he a con-artist? Who has he conned? He is entertainment value, but he has no psychic powers whatsoever. He cannot bend metal by thought waves, he can do nothing by thought waves. He's a good entertainer if you leave it at that."

Robert A. Steiner, National President (1988-1989) of the Society of American Magicians stated categorically, June 16th, that URI GELLER does magic tricks which are well known to those who study magic. These tricks are described in the vast literature associated with the art of magic. Steiner further stated that Uri Geller is a skilled, talented and creative performer, but there is no validated evidence that this is of a supernatural nature.


Oh, and note this quote especially:

http://www.zem.demon.co.uk/abra.htm

James Randi A word of caution: do not assume that Geller uses standard conjuring methods to accomplish his chicanery. I have been able to solve his methods only by careful study of videotapes, interviews of persons personally involved, and by rejecting all involved physical explanations. The man is a natural magician. He does everything with great care, meticulous misdirection and flawless instinct. The nails are real, the keys are really borrowed, the envelopes are actually sealed, there are no stooges, there are no secret radio devices and there are no props from the magic catalogues. He is a consummate performer, and had he arrived in true colours as a conjurer, he'd have found no more ardent supporter than this magician.


I put it to you, Mister Larsen, that Uri Geller is actually a supremely skilled and talented magician.

I also put it to you that Randi's remark about cereal packets was a lie and certainly libelous. The scientists investigating Geller certainly did not deserve such scorn.

I further put it to you, Mister Larsen, that this sort of behaviour from Randi does not help anyone, and is deeply damaging to the sceptical cause. The whole hoo-hah was the result of a delererate and malicious lie by Randi. Geller is certainly no angel, but Randi isn't the hero he pretends to be.
 
T'ai Chi said:
The boxes that have magic tricks on them, supposedly like what Geller does, that have supposedly fooled scientists.

Where are the boxes?
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There aren't any. I don't doubt there are cereal packets with very simple magic tricks on them. But they are nowhere near the level of skill that Geller has. And they wouldn't fool Kookbreaker, let alone a scientist or a clever person.
 
On the other hand, we know from Project Alpha that even simpler tricks can fool scientists, when the subjects are allowed to set the agenda.
 
Peter Morris said:
There aren't any. I don't doubt there are cereal packets with very simple magic tricks on them. But they are nowhere near the level of skill that Geller has. And they wouldn't fool Kookbreaker, let alone a scientist or a clever person.
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You consider spoon bending a skillful trick?

wow.
 
Peter Morris said:
Plenty of stuff.

Lets look at the opinions of some professional magicians, shall we?
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I am not interested in the opinions of some professional magicians. I am interested in the tricks Geller used when tested.

What did Geller do that was not comparable to these cereal tricks?

Peter Morris said:
I put it to you, Mister Larsen, that Uri Geller is actually a supremely skilled and talented magician.

I also put it to you that Randi's remark about cereal packets was a lie and certainly libelous. The scientists investigating Geller certainly did not deserve such scorn.

I further put it to you, Mister Larsen, that this sort of behaviour from Randi does not help anyone, and is deeply damaging to the sceptical cause. The whole hoo-hah was the result of a delererate and malicious lie by Randi. Geller is certainly no angel, but Randi isn't the hero he pretends to be.
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What lie? Haven't we seen cereal tricks?
 
Let's take a look at Geller's Trick collection:

Bending spoons
Restarting Watches/Clocks
Reproducing pictures made on the spot.
Reproducing pictures made earlier and hidden in envlopes.
Guessing the film can with the Water in it.

(this list does not inlcude 'suggestion' tricks such as claiming to send out psychic waves, etc.)

Compare this to a single routine by Teller (Penn is mostly spokesman), the Amazing Jonathon, or even David Blaine. They have a much larger 'bag of tricks' and they do them quite well. Some magicians have unbelievable specialities (such as the breath control trick demonstrated by that magician at the beginning of Randi's Nova special.

Now is Geller good at the tricks he does? He sure is. No doubt about that. But the tricks are not very impressive, except for maybe the envelope trick. Most of them are stale tricks that magician worth their salt would not have bothered with. It would be of little concern

Teller had a rant about why spoon bending fooled so many educated in the book "How to Play with Your Food". The bottom line of which was 'Spoon bending is lame, so most magicians never bother with it'. Its the lamer version of pulling a quarter from behind the ear of a kid, or, so weak a trick that it ends up on the back of a cereal box. Sadly, it was that disdain for the trick that lead to so many being fooled by it when Geller used it as his Magnum Opus.
 
T'ai Chi said:
Thanks for your comments jj.
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You've asserted knowledge of what Geller does.

You've also, after that assertion, demanded that others educate you on that very issue.

I did not "comment" on anything, I asked you, specifically, to resolve this very serious contradiction in your claims.

You've made the contradictory statements, it's up to you to clear them up.
 
CFLarsen said:
I am not interested in the opinions of some professional magicians. I am interested in the tricks Geller used when tested.

What did Geller do that was not comparable to these cereal tricks?
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You are making the claim. What did he do that WAS comparable to the cereal tricks.

Kindly give your evidence that :

1) Geller ever performed a trick similar to those on cereal boxes
2) there was at least one scientist fooled by that particular trick.

But of course, you won't. You never prove your claims.
 
kookbreaker said:
Let's take a look at Geller's Trick collection:

Bending spoons
Restarting Watches/Clocks
Reproducing pictures made on the spot.
Reproducing pictures made earlier and hidden in envlopes.
Guessing the film can with the Water in it..
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By the same token one could list The Amazing Randi's trick collection, back in the days when he earned his living from magic, before he started making money from debunking.:

Open a lock.


You are neglecting a hundred different varients of the same theme that make it seem like a new fresh trick every time. He doesn't only bend spoons, he bends all sorts of things.

There's also the compass trick.
 
Peter Morris said:
You are making the claim. What did he do that WAS comparable to the cereal tricks.

Kindly give your evidence that :

1) Geller ever performed a trick similar to those on cereal boxes
2) there was at least one scientist fooled by that particular trick.

But of course, you won't. You never prove your claims.
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From his existing posts, one would conclude that it is CFLarsen's claim that ALL of Uri's tricks are "similar" (Randi's word was "like") to those on cereal boxes. Given that, I'll discard #2 as trivial, since it would then suffice to demonstrate that any scientist was ever fooled by any trick Uri has ever done, which I think all would agree is established.

Therefore I believe the two of you disagree in concluding that Uri's tricks are "like" those found on cereal boxes. Since simile is a subjective measure, you may continue to disagree about the accuracy of that statement in the face of unending mounds of evidence, until the end of time.

Your evidence demonstrates that Uri is indeed highly-skilled in the performance of his tricks, but does nothing to dispell a the idea that the tricks themselves are so simple in concept that they could be presented to a child.

Similarly, Gary Kasparov could be said to have defeated some very brilliant people in a game so simple that my 5 year old nephew can play it. Some may view that as accomplishment, others may view it as pointless foolishness.

The quarter-from-the-ear analogy is an excellent point. If Uri had built his career from that instead of bending spoons, all the same would apply. He could be marvelous at misdirection and succeed in fooling a good many people into thinking he could really materialize currency from aural appendages. At the end of the day, however, he would still be a target of skeptic derision for using (silly?) tricks to claim supernatural ability.
 
petre said:
From his existing posts, one would conclude that it is CFLarsen's claim that ALL of Uri's tricks are "similar" (Randi's word was "like") to those on cereal boxes.
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I haven't seen Geller do anything magically that is particularly impressive.

What he is good at is performance. And, of course, sucking up to the rich and famous....
 
Peter Morris said:
By the same token one could list The Amazing Randi's trick collection, back in the days when he earned his living from magic, before he started making money from debunking.:

Open a lock.
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I would disagree. He had a skillset that all good escape artists have that is much more than merely picking a lock. Escaping from a strait jacket is much more involved than picking a lock, for starters. He also had a decent skill at slight-of-hand, as he has demonstrated. There are better, of course, but Randi is no slouch.

More to the point, one would be very hard pressed to imagine escape artists' tricks, or Teller's 'Cup and ball trick with Clear cups' routine on the back of a cereal box.

You are neglecting a hundred different varients of the same theme that make it seem like a new fresh trick every time. He doesn't only bend spoons, he bends all sorts of things.
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Sure, he bent lots of things. But it was still just bending a metal object. Typically cutlery, keys or jewelry. Compare that to the skillset of Teller or the Amazing Jonathan. Mostly Geller got by, by having a lot of charisma and enthusiasm to make the trick seem new.

Bend a spoon while hanging over Niagra Falls and you've still just bent a spoon. By comparison, Randi merely 'picked a lock' and escaped a strait jacket while hanging over Niagra Falls. Makes a better impression in my book.

There's also the compass trick.
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I don't recall that being part of his act. I only thought he did that in the lab. I'd say that is even less impressive than bending spoons.
 
Remember the "Superminds fiasco"? A bunch of children did indeed replicate many of Geller's tricks, including metalbending.

They used the same method as Geller, i.e. bending the spoon when no-one was watching and then claiming to have done it by psychic powers.

This is rather too simple and childish a trick to put on the reverse side of a cereal packet.

Nonetheless, it fooled scientists in the hands of both Geller and a bunch of small children.
 
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