• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Does anything exist?

eventually what emerged from those early methods or beliefs, was a new and distinct methodology that we now know as “science”. However, the big difference is that science quite quickly became vastly more successful at finding genuine convincing testable explanations

This progression is pretty clear, since the evidence of such is mostly constrained within the last 1000 years.

What does this have to say about theprestige's example of the right to rebel?

Belz said:
What expertise? Expertise in structured thinking? I've got plenty of that. I don't need to defer to anyone.

Says you, I guess?

It smacks of people doubting epidemiologists and climate deniers, thinking they're smarter or have special info.
 
Last edited:
The problem is people are saying "definition" when what they are really doing is trying to define something into existence.

Again this all the same tactics the God people use. "God created the universe. Oh how to I prove it? Well the universe has to be created, something had to have created it, and God is what creates universes."

Same thing here. "Philosophy has to exist as a meaningful concept because we're defining it as all thought, base thought, thinking about thinking, and so forth. Are you denying thought exist? Ergo ipso facto philosophy exists as a meaningful category."

Moral reasoning exists as a meaningful category. Obviously. All of our theories of government, of rights, of social contracts explicit and implicit, of law and justice, of crime and punishment, all of these spring directly from philosophy, and depend on it. Philosophy is probably a more meaningful - or at least more important - category of thought for humans than even the scientific method.
 
Ok here’s my hot take

Philosophy is the dinosaurs.
Science is birds.

I like

Philosophy is the dinosaurs (and other ancient creatures, some which are alive today, and separate from those just of therapod descent - we're foolish to deny the impact of crocodillians and sharks on the modern world, say)

Science is the birds, far more successful at self-powered flight than any prehistoric creature was or still is.

:D
 
Last edited:
The problem is philosophy is dinosaurs until 5 minutes from now when the argument needs philosophy to be amphibians and then philosophy will be amphibians, all the while people are actually arguing for Bigfoot.
 
I'm not going to do your work for you. Either answer my question or continue to speak gibberish. What is "conceptual space"?

As for your condescending tone, it's not going to help you make your case. So far your posts in this thread have contained a lot of words but little useful stuff.

Tone? Oh, you mean taking the same attitude as you and your fellows? Last I checked, when I first posted you were both picking your teeth after running off in exasperation and demanding satisfaction from all comers, as if arbiters of some grace, yet exhibiting none and offering no substance.

Your question has been amply answered already. So here is your challenge, one already posed in similar terms: How do you derive a first principle? Why do so? Who are the usual suspects often used in its place?
 
Tone? Oh, you mean taking the same attitude as you and your fellows? Last I checked, when I first posted you were both picking your teeth after running off in exasperation and demanding satisfaction from all comers, as if arbiters of some grace, yet exhibiting none and offering no substance.

Wow, it seems you had a chip on your shoulder at the outset.

Your question has been amply answered already.

It has not. If it has, show it.

So here is your challenge, one already posed in similar terms: How do you derive a first principle? Why do so? Who are the usual suspects often used in its place?

What part of "I'm not doing your work for you" did you not understand?
 
Your question has been amply answered already. So here is your challenge, one already posed in similar terms: How do you derive a first principle? Why do so? Who are the usual suspects often used in its place?

Really? You're going to make the "God is a watchmaker" argument just switch "Universe" for "Intellectual discourse of any kind" and "God" for "Philosophy?"

I've asked a dozen times in this discussion why philosophy gets to self start it's own process but science doesn't.

If we need philosophy to serve as the ignition to science's engine, what starts up philosophy?

Or like God are we just going to get a mumbled angry "Well that's different so stop asking..."
 
I've asked a dozen times in this discussion why philosophy gets to self start it's own process but science doesn't.

If we need philosophy to serve as the ignition to science's engine, what starts up philosophy?

If you're really interested in science, then you'll be following the parallel discussion going on of the history of science, relative to philosophy. I can't say what must necessarily come first, that would be like predicting evolution. I can say, historically, that some form of philosophy proceeded science, such that they were indistinguishable at some point.

I don't know about the historical bootstrapping of philosophy. It seems to be open.

Saying "I don't know" is scientific. Saying "philosophy is crap" isn't.
 
Last edited:
If you're really interested in science, then you'll be following the parallel discussion going on of the history of science, relative to philosophy. I can't say what must necessarily come first, that would be like predicting evolution. I can say, historically, that some form of philosophy proceeded science, such that they were indistinguishable at some point.

I don't know about the historical bootstrapping of philosophy. It seems to be open.

When someone asks you what 2+2 equals, you do understand that telling them the story of how we discovered what 2+2 is isn't an answer, right?

I asked you the time. You told me the history of watchmaking.
 
When someone asks you what 2+2 equals, you do understand that telling them the story of how we discovered what 2+2 is isn't an answer, right?

I asked you the time. You told me the history of watchmaking.

and what is the time separate from the history of watchmaking, separate from the development of time zones, separate from a 4D spacetime?

You want a quick, pithy, limited answer that doesn't reflect what the activity actually is? Saying that it is thinking about thinking, or disciplined processes of thought, isn't sufficient for you? The one word "Ethics" isn't sufficient for you? Then neither is 3:00 pm.
 
Conceptual space: The full extent of human thought, knowledge and imagination, including science, fiction, woo, myth, the kitchen sink, and yes, here we find Bob, our uncle. Hi Bob!
Physical space: The natural world, famously the subject of scientific inquiry.

First quickie: Because some parts of conceptual space do, in fact, easily map to/correspond with/ have clear relation to physical space, this can lead to error/malpractice/misunderstanding in extending that validity to concepts that have no natural basis. BOLO: Untethered wackos and stone axe savages.

Second quikie: Because a great deal of human endeavor is social (politics, art, sports, farting around), the social aspect has a deep relationship with shared concepts. More basically, social convention determines meaning in language, such that meaning is arbitrarily assigned by us, not a part of nature. Making sense of human endeavor is therefore a task that falls to us alone, rather dumped by the universe into a quandary of our evolution's making.

Science: Both a practice and a body of knowledge. Output in the form of both confirmed observations and consensus around most likely/best explanation. Not in the business of "truth", but of simply being exhaustingly single-minded about properly answering the question, "What is the case?" with respect to the natural world at all scales. As body of knowledge, its forte, what gives it validity and reliability, and therefore usefulness, is its tether to a source of hard facts. Among other endeavors, science works in observed universals, at times called laws when any alternative to their working or the understanding of them would seem to make physics break. The beauty of science in terms of its authority is that anyone is free and (theoretically) capable of testing any observation, or surpassing the way in which reality itself is perceived at fundamental levels, such that the authority derives from method, not opinion (ideally; then there are science departments... and messy humans in them).

Description and reflection, then, not normative reasoning, is the realm of science.

Science is able to accomplish its work owing to the fact that (1) nature can be made sense of because (2) it follows rules, which yields the corrolary that we think these things of worth because we use the rules to make the environment more predictable, meaning we can and do employ basic if/then and similar heuristics in order to survive, as do many animals.

Observations:
(1) Humans are social animals.
(2) Humans are the apex predator on planet Earth (with a bow and curtsy to microbes)

Problem statement: Apex predators living in a social environment are subject to both a reasonably predictable and historically observed tendency to prey on each other, making complex society impossible unless constrained by implicit or explicit agreements not to do so.... And here we are, at philosophy's big question: How, then, shall we live?

Hello, science? Oh, hi! You are here! Right, because human artifacts are observable, as is human behavior. Good to know you are not entirely missing; good to have around. But, uh, no-go on the normative reasoning we need.

My view is that modern society was first society. The slow Neolithic revolution, so-called, featured an increased and observable level of cooperation beyond the family and single tribe, yielding writing, mathematics, astronomy, money, a trade economy, and private property as benefits. Society then became increasingly modern as we observe that the fruits of science and of human organization served to float all boats permanently.

Human organization includes civil society (civic organizations), religions, political institutions, and the arts, etc. But, but, but... how?

We can flip coins, or do philosophy!
 
Last edited:
Conceptual space: The full extent of human thought, knowledge and imagination, including science, fiction, woo, myth, the kitchen sink, and yes, here we find Bob, our uncle. Hi Bob!
Physical space: The natural world, famously the subject of scientific inquiry.

First quickie: Because some parts of conceptual space do, in fact, easily map to/correspond with/ have clear relation to physical space, this can lead to error/malpractice/misunderstanding in extending that validity to concepts that have no natural basis. BOLO: Untethered wackos and stone axe savages.

Second quikie: Because a great deal of human endeavor is social (politics, art, sports, farting around), the social aspect has a deep relationship with shared concepts. More basically, social convention determines meaning in language, such that meaning is arbitrarily assigned by us, not a part of nature. Making sense of human endeavor is therefore a task that falls to us alone, rather dumped by the universe into a quandary of our evolution's making.

Science: Both a practice and a body of knowledge. Output in the form of both confirmed observations and consensus around most likely/best explanation. Not in the business of "truth", but of simply being exhaustingly single-minded about properly answering the question, "What is the case?" with respect to the natural world at all scales. As body of knowledge, its forte, what gives it validity and reliability, and therefore usefulness, is its tether to a source of hard facts. Among other endeavors, science works in observed universals, at times called laws when any alternative to their working or the understanding of them would seem to make physics break. The beauty of science in terms of its authority is that anyone is free and (theoretically) capable of testing any observation, or surpassing the way in which reality itself is perceived at fundamental levels, such that the authority derives from method, not opinion (ideally; then there are science departments... and messy humans in them).

Description and reflection, then, not normative reasoning, is the realm of science.

Science is able to accomplish its work owing to the fact that (1) nature can be made sense of because (2) it follows rules, which yields the corrolary that we think these things of worth because we use the rules to make the environment more predictable, meaning we can and do employ basic if/then and similar heuristics in order to survive, as do many animals.

Observations:
(1) Humans are social animals.
(2) Humans are the apex predator on planet Earth (with a bow and curtsy to microbes)

Problem statement: Apex predators living in a social environment are subject to both a reasonably predictable and historically observed tendency to prey on each other, making complex society impossible unless constrained by implicit or explicit agreements not to do so.... And here we are, at philosophy's big question: How, then, shall we live?

Hello, science? Oh, hi! You are here! Right, because human artifacts are observable, as is human behavior. Good to know you are not entirely missing; good to have around. But, uh, no-go on the normative reasoning we need.

My view is that modern society was first society. The slow Neolithic revolution, so-called, featured an increased and observable level of cooperation beyond the family and single tribe, yielding writing, mathematics, astronomy, money, a trade economy, and private property as benefits. Society then became increasingly modern as we observe that the fruits of science and of human organization served to float all boats permanently.

Human organization includes civil society (civic organizations), religions, political institutions, and the arts, etc. But, but, but... how?

We can flip coins, or do philosophy!

I must have missed when philosophy answered all of those questions better than science, or indeed at all.

Or did the definition of philosophy changed yet again to "A system for categorizing all the questions that don't (or more often we pretend we don't) have answer for?"
 
Wow, it seems you had a chip on your shoulder at the outset.



It has not. If it has, show it.



What part of "I'm not doing your work for you" did you not understand?

Dum dee dum dee dum... see above. No chip, but as many a bully and tossed bar customer has found out, I cannot tolerate bullies, so I bully them.
 
I must have missed when philosophy answered all of those questions better than science, or indeed at all.

Or did the definition of philosophy changed yet again to "A system for categorizing all the questions that don't (or more often we pretend we don't) have answer for?"

This is embarrassing. You didn't understand a damned thing, did you? No wonder you've cut and run from every single challenge and question, and have yet to produce. Bring it, or step aside.
 
Dum dee dum dee dum... see above. No chip, but as many a bully and tossed bar customer has found out, I cannot tolerate bullies, so I bully them.

Philosophy isn't a person. It can't be bullied.

This is insane. Philosophy is not your virginal daughter you caught in the hayloft with one the local boys.
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom