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The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-Opened

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The sinking of the RMS Empress of IrelandWP is on point here. The ship was rammed by a collier and sank in only 14 minutes, at night and in near-freezing water. Over 1000 people died, nearly as many as on the Lusitania, and in the same ballpark as the Titanic. 59% of the crew survived, but only 20.5% of the passengers.
 
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With the well known exception of the Titanic, women and children are far less likely to survive a sinking ship than male passengers, and the male members of a ship's crew almost invariably have the best chances of survival compared with passengers.
 
lobosrul5 said:
Yes, it would have been mighty suspicious if the entire crew of about 170 survived, only they didn't. Only a minority did. The captain and first mate were among the dead. Also, if there was some sort of conspiracy someone 25 years later among the survivors would've blabbed by now, especially on a death-bed type confession. Its human nature.

Professional seafarers having a better survival rate than landlubbers is hardly suspicious. Nearly all of the passengers to survive were youngish fit men, which I have little doubt described most of the crew.

The other points you've raised about the crew not giving adequate warning or assistance to the passengers may have some validity but it doesn't equate to foreknowledge of the sinking.
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A lot of the "crew" that survived weren't even mariners. They included several cooks, waitstaff, a croupier, and a few of the entertainers. Your point about being young and fit probably still applies, though, but that just reinforces the idea that the crew that survived didn't do so because they were privy to insider foreknowledge. Unless you believe in some sort of "Ruby Rhod" scenario, where the entertainers are the operatives.
 
Reformed Offlian said:
None of this explains what if anything was suspicious about the crew's attire and gear, nor their familiarity with escape procedures.

You suggested that the fact that the crew was appropriately geared-up indicated some sort of illicit foreknowledge. Why should anyone believe that it indicates that? What would the crew have been wearing if that weren't the case? What should their knowledge of escape procedures have been, if everything were on the up-and-up?
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Look at it from the POV of the JAIC. Imagine you were tasked with investigating the accident. Obviously, whilst you might have a pet theory as to the cause of it, surely, one would want to rule out things such as sabotage, vandalism or crime. Sadly there are such people in the world. The sheer speed of the sinking should raise a suspicion in the mind of an experienced marine investigator.

So, if you want to rule out crime, knowing that many big crimes have an insider element you do need to ask searching questions. You would not just want to assume that the crew are necessarily 100% impartial and the passengers who were on the ship and survived are some how not worth interviewing.

For example, the sole British survivor, Paul Barney, has never been contacted by the accident investigators.

“On the ship I heard a loud metallic bang and I’ve always wondered if the sinking was caused by a bomb.

“However the latest pictures show a large hole in the hull with the edges pushed in, not out, so that rules out the bomb theory.

“From early on I’ve always believed there were loose ends in the official inquiry.

“If a plane crashes, every last piece of wreckage is collected to be re-assembled in a hanger to find out the reason.

“But there’s never been a proper investigation of the hull, which is paramount in any maritime disaster.

“Neither were any of the survivors questioned. I certainly haven’t been. Their testimony is vital for any proper investigation.”
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DAILY POST

So yes, it should be questioned how come the crew had time to get fully dressed in the appropriate level of clothing needed for a possible shipwreck and the passengers didn't, apart from a few quick-thinking individuals.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Also, every sub now has a device on the inner cap of a torpedo tube called the 'Thetis Screw'.
It stops a cap being opened more than a fraction and can only be released after a cap has been opened a set amount. If the outer cap is open then water will be evident leaking in and the cap can be screwed shut again.

If you watch the film Ice Station Zebra, a major plot point was an inner cap being opened and the sub flooding.
In the film they didn't have a Thetis Screw but instead a small 'test cock' that had been sabotaged by the bad guy. A crewman opened the little tap and no water came out and they opened the cap and disaster!
This was supposed to be a modern nuclear boat and the whole scene was pure invention.
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Well, of course, film producers fictionalise 'true stories' to an extent that fits in with Hollywood 'cliff hangers'.

There is a fictionalised film, 'Baltic Storm', of the M/S Estonia sinking, originally conceived by investigative German journalist, Jutta Berg. Worth seeing for early shots of newscasters Trevor MacDonald and Alastair Stewart (_?) live reporting the scene but totally corny with the presence of Donald Sutherland as some kind of US Big Shot. Oh, and the whereabouts of missing Captain Piht is revealed.

 
SpitfireIX said:
JAIC Report, 6.3 Summary of testimonies by surviving passengers and off-duty crew members:

One witness, in a starboard forward cabin, heard some hard thumping and something banging. She thought it was strange and spoke to her friends about it. She had a horrid feeling and left her cabin. Her friends said they would follow. She went up to deck 7 and sat in a chair for a few minutes when she suddenly heard a heavy blow and the ship started to heel over. . . .

Another witness went forward along the starboard corridor followed by his parents and his girlfriend. When he came to the entrance area there were many people there. He estimated the list at this time to be about 10 - 15 degrees. The lights were still on. . . .

In another forward cabin a man and his wife were awakened by a sound as of large sheets of metal beating together. Soon after this, the ship developed a list. The couple, in their night clothes, rushed out into the corridor. They noticed others leaving their cabins, some running back and forth and others falling and crawling. The list increased by jerks and somewhere along their way out, the wife lost sight of her husband. . . .​

I've chosen a few quotations that clearly indicate that the witness was a passenger. There are several others. Additionally, many other summaries could only have come from passengers, as they are from decks where there were no crew cabins.




The problem is that you clearly didn't bother to read, or even skim, the report, before you started your ridiculous conspiracy-mongering.


[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/17060474efd47d7e6b.jpg[/qimg]

ETA: Ninja'd by Reformed Offian.
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Sorry, are you saying they are not actually named?
 
lobosrul5 said:
Yes, it would have been mighty suspicious if the entire crew of about 170 survived, only they didn't. Only a minority did. The captain and first mate were among the dead. Also, if there was some sort of conspiracy someone 25 years later among the survivors would've blabbed by now, especially on a death-bed type confession. Its human nature.

Professional seafarers having a better survival rate than landlubbers is hardly suspicious. Nearly all of the passengers to survive were youngish fit men, which I have little doubt described most of the crew.

The other points you've raised about the crew not giving adequate warning or assistance to the passengers may have some validity but it doesn't equate to foreknowledge of the sinking.
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Ah but they have blabbed. Ten years after the accident the Swedish government admitted in the rikstag it had used the M/S Estonia to smuggle out Soviet military equipment. A rather major thing to have left out, don't you think?

You might dismiss the concerns but the Swedish government were legally obliged to revisit the case under the concept of 'new evidence'. You know as well as me that closed cases are NEVER reopened unless there is a compelling reason that the verdict has a 'reasonable prospect of success' of being overturned. Certainly not three different national governments in concordance. (Sweden, Estonia and Finland). Not to mention the signatories to the Estonia treaty.

It is amusing that people are passionately arguing against the case being reopened, but this issue has already been decided.
 
SpitfireIX said:
The sinking of the RMS Empress of IrelandWP is on point here. The ship was rammed by a collier and sank in only 14 minutes, at night and in near-freezing water. Over 1000 people died, nearly as many as on the Lusitania, and in the same ballpark as the Titanic. 59% of the crew survived, but only 20.5% of the passengers.
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That is certainly in line with a collision with another vessel.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
With the well known exception of the Titanic, women and children are far less likely to survive a sinking ship than male passengers, and the male members of a ship's crew almost invariably have the best chances of survival compared with passengers.
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So much for women, children and passengers, first. The point actually being made was, as an investigator you would need to rule out the crew having anything to do with the sinking from a criminal POV. For example, opening the car ramp or the pilot's door to get rid of illicit cargo. It is vanishingly remote but it is the job of a marine investigator to look at all possible reasons for the sinking and rule them out.
 
Reformed Offlian said:
A lot of the "crew" that survived weren't even mariners. They included several cooks, waitstaff, a croupier, and a few of the entertainers. Your point about being young and fit probably still applies, though, but that just reinforces the idea that the crew that survived didn't do so because they were privy to insider foreknowledge. Unless you believe in some sort of "Ruby Rhod" scenario, where the entertainers are the operatives.
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As pointed out earlier, those with cabins on the upper decks and the young, who preferred to spend the night on deck instead of hiring a cabin, as one used to be allowed to do (now, you have to purchase a cabin), were the predominant survivors. Likewise on the Titanic, the vast majority of survivors were the first class passengers.

A boatload of Estonian crew were rescued by M/S Mariella according to their crib sheet, which included asking survivors for their date of birth (so it is hard to imagine a bystander would have had those details handy). This included a pair of twins, who were entertainers. The survivors list uses one of the twin's nickname, which again, if the details were merely copied off official records, how would they have known that. So, if some of the crew were ready prepared with a life boat and then vanished shortly after being 'rescued' that raises questions, no?
 
Vixen said:
Look at it from the POV of the JAIC.
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No, let's not. The question I asked was: What if anything was suspicious about how the crew was dressed and equipped, or with their knowledge of escape procedures? Why would that indicate illicit foreknowledge of anything?

The POV of the JAIC has SFA to do with that.
 
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Vixen said:
So much for women, children and passengers, first. The point actually being made was, as an investigator you would need to rule out the crew having anything to do with the sinking from a criminal POV. For example, opening the car ramp or the pilot's door to get rid of illicit cargo. It is vanishingly remote but it is the job of a marine investigator to look at all possible reasons for the sinking and rule them out.
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Fortunately the investigators weren't conspiracy nuts.
 
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