Not vaccinated=selfish & irresponsible?

[Roboramma]

Most of the complaints are silly here besides that. What about new variants!!! Ya, we should be worried here vs the rest of the world where such a large percentage are unvaccinated. Can anyone here give me a scientific and data related reason a strain would come from our smaller population of unvaccinated people vs the larger worldly population?

Of course the number of unvaccinated people is related to the chance of a variant arising. As such, you're right that, say, India is a more likely source for a new variant, because there are more people infected. But that doesn't argue that there's no risk in smaller populations, just that the risk is lower.

Beyond that, what specifically stops variants from forming in the vaccinated portion of the population? Is there a paper I could read in regards to why, what % is avoided doing so exactly etc?

This seems like a weird question: how is a variant supposed to form in people that aren't infected? If the vaccine prevents infection, then it's going to also prevent the formation of a variant.

All of this is besides the question. Getting vaccinated or not is always going to be a selfish decision. Being irresponsible will depend on the actions of people whether vaccinated or not. If Joe Shmoe doesn't get vaccinated but lives a hermit like existence, is he more irresponsible than Jim Slim who is vaccinated but engages in much riskier activity, interacts with highly vulnerable people afterwards, ignores a runny nose because it's probably allergies since he had the vaccine etc etc.

Similarly, being irresponsible depends on actions whether people drive drunk or not. If Joe Shmoe drinks and drives but lives on his own farm and drives on roads with very little traffic or chance of interacting with other cars, and at low speeds is he more irresponsible than Jim Slim who doesn't drink and drive, but engages in much riskier activity, drives erratically, drives after extended periods of lack of sleep, and does so on busy highways at high speed?

I'd say whether or not drunk driving is an irresponsible behavior is a question that should be treated all else being equal. And the same is true of vaccination.

It's certainly possible for vaccinated people to be irresponsible. That doesn't mean that not getting vaccinated isn't irresponsible.

 

[rdwight]

I don't know who you are talking about, but it doesn't apply to me. If you can find particular people or organizations being hypocritical, then fine, but that is on them. If you cannot, then maybe don't paint in such broad brush strokes.

Not sure why you felt personally addressed here. This was not some kind of super fringe talking point, it was addressed in basically every mainstream left leaning media outlet during the run up to the vaccines approval/the election. How much they weighted Trumps influence and the effect on 'rushing' the approval was not universally the same but to ignore that coverage and partisanship of it allows repetition in the future, and lack of trust overall in these institutions.

Of course the number of unvaccinated people is related to the chance of a variant arising. As such, you're right that, say, India is a more likely source for a new variant, because there are more people infected. But that doesn't argue that there's no risk in smaller populations, just that the risk is lower.

It is a talking point to guilt compliance. By that logic, although vaccines provide protection, it is not perfect. So that smaller population of breakthrough cases remains a pool for variant creation. If people harped on this, you would find it valid but likelihood small. I look at it the same but carry that over to the unvaccinated population here.

This seems like a weird question: how is a variant supposed to form in people that aren't infected? If the vaccine prevents infection, then it's going to also prevent the formation of a variant.

Vaccination does not seem to prevent infection as much as people would hope. Preventing hospitalization and death seem to be the most important function, but infection and spread are still possible, and more likely with Delta vs previous variants.

I'd say whether or not drunk driving is an irresponsible behavior is a question that should be treated all else being equal. And the same is true of vaccination.

It's certainly possible for vaccinated people to be irresponsible. That doesn't mean that not getting vaccinated isn't irresponsible.

I get what you are saying. What I am pointing out is that vaccination in and of itself does not make people responsible. It decreases personal risk, but you can negate that through your own actions, and increase risks to others. Vaccination encourages riskier behavior. The hope is that it is balanced in favor of allowing those risks.

 

[angrysoba]

Not sure why you felt personally addressed here. This was not some kind of super fringe talking point, it was addressed in basically every mainstream left leaning media outlet during the run up to the vaccines approval/the election. How much they weighted Trumps influence and the effect on 'rushing' the approval was not universally the same but to ignore that coverage and partisanship of it allows repetition in the future, and lack of trust overall in these institutions.

I would prefer that you give some examples rather than stating that this is a big thing that happened.

Of course, it may be that what you are saying is completely true and I just missed it what with me not living in or being from the US.

It wouldn't surprise me that some people decide that the pandemic and vaccines can only be looked at through the prism of political partisanship. That said, if you want to start doing that here, why not make specific claims available for discussion rather than just inviting everyone to start hotly debating whatever they remember from last year.

 

[The Don]

Death rate is not the only issue.

But let's take those odds. If you were offered $10,000 to walk into a room with 500 people where it was known that one of you would be shot in the head, would you feel okay with those odds?

Yes or no?

...as you clearly say, that assumes that the only negative outcome from catching Covid is dying.

In that same room there are a bunch more people who end up being disabled - possibly permanently (long Covid); another group of people who sustain a significant injury and who suffer physically, emotionally, financially or a mix of all three as a result; a much larger group who have an emotional attachment to the dead, disabled or injured and who suffer even if they personally aren't physically injured.

 

[Belz...]

Depends on what type of measurement scale you are referring to.

Please provide a measurement scale in which 2+2 =4.

 

[catsmate]

And I was right too. Overall death rate to date in America is a mere 2:1,000. NOT the 80% iun the first news out of China hospitals, only 1/50th of the 10% of the Flu of1917.

Irresponsible and risky as a plan, sure, but REAL. Or are you n saying it is NOT a real factor?

I'm love to see your citations for the Spanish 'flu (which lasted 1917 to 1920 BTW) as having a 10% mortality.

 

[The Don]

I'm love to see your citations for the Spanish 'flu (which lasted 1917 to 1920 BTW) as having a 10% mortality.

Not just 10% mortality, that 10% of the population died which implies a considerably higher mortality rate given that there wasn't a 100% infection rate.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Cue the "Come back here coward. I demand you have a civil debate with me about why I'm morally obligated to not infect you with a deadly disease" trolls....

Libertarianism kinda struggles with the concept of externalized risk. Their Non-aggression principle works ok-ish when dealing with the idea of intentional violence, but absolutely falls apart when dealing with risk assessment and mitigation or how selfish jackasses can incur broad societal damage orders of magnitude beyond their ability to recompense.

 

[Leftus]

Your vaccination protects you, but imperfectly.

There are people who would like to be vaccinated, but can't be. They aren't protected, and the unvaccinated can transmit the virus to them.

The unvaccinated who get and transmit the virus are a pool in which the virus can mutate such that it can become a danger to the vaccinated.

All of these are ways in which one person's being vaccinated (or not) affects others.

You are conflating not having the vaccine with being infected. The unvaccinated can not spread the virus, only the infected can. Since I do the bulk of my work from my couch, and don't deal with the general public, or any other human, my chances of catching the virus are all but indistinguishable from zero. Getting the vaccine would actually expose me to more vectors than not getting it. So I'm going to wait a bit longer.

 

[ZirconBlue]

I would prefer that you give some examples rather than stating that this is a big thing that happened.

Of course, it may be that what you are saying is completely true and I just missed it what with me not living in or being from the US.

I DO live in the US, but do not recall any such examples at all, let alone widespread.

 

[dudalb]

Tennesee basically shut down all state vaccination programs today..and when the state legislature comes back, some GOPers want to shut down the state Department of Health entirely.
Wellcome to the new Dark Ages.

 

[8enotto]

I'm love to see your citations for the Spanish 'flu (which lasted 1917 to 1920 BTW) as having a 10% mortality.

And from a decent documentary about it I seen it had continued to pop up now and again until about 1956. Each time doing less damage as before.

I think we can expect something similar from the current disease.

Except now the world is more prepared for dealing with it.

 

[mgidm86]

If you made it $10,000,000 I would probably go with it. And a cadbury creme egg....And a KFC zinger burger meal with potato and gravy with some wicked wings. Has to winglets though, not the wee mini drumsticks.

At least people have the possibility of winning something. People that aren't vaccinated don't even get the $10,000 from my scenario. They get nothing for their risk. It's a gamble with no reward.

There has to be a way for me to make money off of these jerkoffs before they die. I hated Sylvia Browne, but if she were still around and went only after conservatives I might have bought her a burrito as a reward one day.

Did I just say that? How can this all be real?

 

[rdwight]

I would prefer that you give some examples rather than stating that this is a big thing that happened.

Of course, it may be that what you are saying is completely true and I just missed it what with me not living in or being from the US.

It wouldn't surprise me that some people decide that the pandemic and vaccines can only be looked at through the prism of political partisanship. That said, if you want to start doing that here, why not make specific claims available for discussion rather than just inviting everyone to start hotly debating whatever they remember from last year.

I DO live in the US, but do not recall any such examples at all, let alone widespread.

Honestly feel like these are questions that would have taken less time to google than to write up. I normally fall on the side of providing proof of claims. So, just some top search results -

Vanity Fair, Time, Washington Post, NBC News, Vice, CNN. If I didn't feel a no true scottsman coming on after this I would just keep listing but I think this will suffice to get where I am coming from.

 

[Hercules56]

Risks from vaccine? Pretty damn low.

Risks from Covid-19? Pretty damn high.

I'll take my chances with the vaccine.

 

[dudalb]

Risks from vaccine? Pretty damn low.

Risks from Covid-19? Pretty damn high.

I'll take my chances with the vaccine.

That is what THEY want you to think so they can control your mind with the chips in the vaccine.....

 

[acbytesla]

Just how stupd does one have to be an American where you can walk into almost any drugstore and be vaccinated for free.and not do it?

 

[mgidm86]

It's an epidemic of stupid. I'm still hoping I will wake up from this nightmare.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

So, just some top search results -

Vanity Fair, Time, Washington Post, NBC News, Vice, CNN. If I didn't feel a no true scottsman coming on after this I would just keep listing but I think this will suffice to get where I am coming from.

You could have also mentioned the current President and Vice President of the US, as they both mentioned having fears that Trump would (somehow) rush the vaccine and it would therefore be unsafe.

 

[acbytesla]

You could have also mentioned the current President and Vice President of the US, as they both mentioned having fears that Trump would (somehow) rush the vaccine and it would therefore be unsafe.

What's your point? Trump proved over and over to this very day that the health of Americans was barely a consideration if it was one at all.

Trump deliberately withheld and downplayed the danger of COVID. Did not encourage masks or social distancing and contradicted the scientists regularly. His administration did their best to obfuscate the health issues.

Frankly, I think Trump shoul hang from a tree for a lot of reasons but his actions on COVID are 1 or 1A with his insurrection and attempt at destroying democracy being the other.