Cont: Trump’s Coup - Part 2

[gnome]

I used to buy inth othe hostile takeover theory, but no longer. The GOP was ripe for a Trump takeover.

Yes--the same hand-wringing Republicans that pass for moderate, that lament the extremism of their counterparts, actively courted voters that would prefer lawmakers just like that. Don't invite the crazies into the tent and then be horrified when they actually want to participate instead of just voting for you and staying safely obscure.

Looking at you, McCain.

 

[Thermal]

During and after the election, a number of posters (me included) described Trump's actions as an attempted coup, and as a serious threat to US democracy. Some of us also characterized Trumpism as fascistic. Some of y'all thought this was reactionary. Nevermind the Trumpists among you -- I cede to your impermiability. I'm curious though what Skeptic Ginger, Thermal, and other sane posters think about General Milley's take on things.

Top US general warned of ‘Reichstag moment’ in Trump’s turbulent last days

Well, to address your curiosity directly: I think that men who make their careers out of being hammers see an awful lot of nails around them, if you take my meaning. More specifically, "the gospel of the furher" is swooning language, so I think the General is being less than objective in his assessment.

My bottom line is that a fascist wants political domination and a bullying CEO type wants his butt kissed and lackeys saying yes sir, but not much more. Ex-Pres Trump (God, I love the Ex part) is unequivocally in the latter, hence not a fascist in word or deed, pretty much by definition.

Fascism and bullying look very much alike. It's the motivation, and consequent action, that separates them. I look at what a fascist would do in a given scenario, and what a bully would do. To my eye, when the dust settled, Trump was 100% in the latter category. The threat he posed was real, but not fascist. A fascist would not have let the unprecedented opportunity on Jan 6 limp away. A fascist would not beg the courts to see things his way. A fascist would not sulk away to Mar-a-Largo on Inauguration Day.

Trump was several levels too weak to ever even approach fascism. That's why, for all the swooning and hyperbolic rhetoric, neither he nor his ever-dwindling followers sported armbands with a black T on them and made a serious run at power. They don't even want it.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Well, to address your curiosity directly: I think that men who make their careers out of being hammers see an awful lot of nails around them, if you take my meaning. More specifically, "the gospel of the furher" is swooning language, so I think the General is being less than objective in his assessment.



My bottom line is that a fascist wants political domination and a bullying CEO type wants his butt kissed and lackeys saying yes sir, but not much more. Ex-Pres Trump (God, I love the Ex part) is unequivocally in the latter, hence not a fascist in word or deed, pretty much by definition.



Fascism and bullying look very much alike. It's the motivation, and consequent action, that separates them. I look at what a fascist would do in a given scenario, and what a bully would do. To my eye, when the dust settled, Trump was 100% in the latter category. The threat he posed was real, but not fascist. A fascist would not have let the unprecedented opportunity on Jan 6 limp away. A fascist would not beg the courts to see things his way. A fascist would not sulk away to Mar-a-Largo on Inauguration Day.



Trump was several levels too weak to ever even approach fascism. That's why, for all the swooning and hyperbolic rhetoric, neither he nor his ever-dwindling followers sported armbands with a black T on them and made a serious run at power. They don't even want it.

Trump was worrying, but my greater fear is someone paying close attention and taking notes, who's name we probably don't know yet.

 

[gnome]

I think my biggest worry is that those same followers would be happy to latch on to someone who does want it, would have been happy to continue following Trump if he followed through--and in fact are disappointed that he didn't. I'm worried that it created a playbook and a following for the next guy that really does want it.

 

[Thermal]

Trump was worrying, but my greater fear is someone paying close attention and taking notes, who's name we probably don't know yet.

Preach. An articulate, charismatic sociopath who figures out how to harness this bigotry bodes ill for the States. And he's coming.

 

[dudalb]

It was their choice to place "being primaried" above the good of their own country.

Which reinforces why I support Term limits for the US Congress. If you knew you would only be there for a limited number of years, and could not make a lifetime career of being in Congress. you might not put reelection above everything else.

 

[kevbo]

Which reinforces why I support Term limits for the US Congress. If you knew you would only be there for a limited number of years, and could not make a lifetime career of being in Congress. you might not put reelection above everything else.

Decades ago I did not support term limits, but the election cycles of late have convinced me of the need for them.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Well, to address your curiosity directly: I think that men who make their careers out of being hammers see an awful lot of nails around them, if you take my meaning. More specifically, "the gospel of the furher" is swooning language, so I think the General is being less than objective in his assessment. ...

Trump was several levels too weak to ever even approach fascism. That's why, for all the swooning and hyperbolic rhetoric, neither he nor his ever-dwindling followers sported armbands with a black T on them and made a serious run at power. They don't even want it.

Bully yes, but Dump was a wannabe fascist, or at a minimum he wanted to be POTUS for life, or at least for 4 more years which is probably more of the future than he ever plans.

Too stupid, definitely and thank goodness for that.

But he put a bunch of Dumpers in the civilian leadership posts in the military. He clearly ranted and raved about 1/6 and the Big Lie and whatever was related to him staying in power even though he lost the election. Millie might not be seeing a nail so much as he was seeing all the behind the scenes Dump was putting out.

 

[Stacyhs]

I also support term limits. Two for senators, 3 for representatives. I also think reps should be elected every 3 years instead of 2 and then limit them to two terms. When you have to run for re-election every 2 years, you never really get out of campaign mode.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Preach. An articulate, charismatic sociopath who figures out how to harness this bigotry bodes ill for the States. And he's coming.

The prescience of Science Fiction. See Heinlein's "If This Goes On—"^WP (1940!)

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Term limits are a gift to lobbyists.

 

[Lurch]

I also support term limits. Two for senators, 3 for representatives. I also think reps should be elected every 3 years instead of 2 and then limit them to two terms. When you have to run for re-election every 2 years, you never really get out of campaign mode.

Christ, even with the Prez's 4-year schedule it seems there's hardly a goddamned breather before the next run is being yammered on and on about. Here we are only a half year into the current term and already 2024 is occupying the minds of many. Little wonder bugger all gets done, what with pols being in near continuous campaign mode. Insane, how the Yanks carry on in their politics. All election matters should by law be restricted to some sensible period before election day; two months would be plenty.

 

[Ladewig]

Trump didn't have the balls to go through with it.
I think he **** his pants when the mob went in to the Capitol and realised what the consequences were going to be if they got their hands on Pence or Pelosi.
He talks a big game but chickens out.

The evidence says otherwise; by evening Trump was talking to various WH staffers and trying to figure out why they weren’t as ecstatic as he was.

Trump has unwaveringly acted as if the whole world were filled with NPCs and he showed as little concern with their lives after he has finished using them as a normal person would show to a used tissue.

He’d be fine with seeing Pence swinging from a gallows. In Trump’s mind, Pence had committed a capital crime (being in a position to help Trump and doing the opposite. and Pence explained his actions by saying he was required to follow the US Constitution, so Pence being ignominiously executed would be just another step in taking office again. And Pelosi publicly criticized him, repeatedly. Plus she was a woman which made her offense even worse. No, Trump would be sing “Happy Days are Here Again,” if Pelosi were murdered by a mob he had spoken to just hours earlier.

ETA
Remember, this is the guy who told Pence to exclude the governors of Washington and Michigan from the daily COVID phone calls because these two did not show enough respect to him. Pence did not exclude them.

 

[varwoche]

My bottom line is that a fascist wants political domination and a bullying CEO type wants his butt kissed and lackeys saying yes sir, but not much more. Ex-Pres Trump (God, I love the Ex part) is unequivocally in the latter, hence not a fascist in word or deed, pretty much by definition.

This minimizes Trump's actions. One doesn't expect a CEO to attempt to overthrow democracy. That's something that wannabe fascists do.

Fascism and bullying look very much alike. It's the motivation, and consequent action, that separates them. I look at what a fascist would do in a given scenario, and what a bully would do. To my eye, when the dust settled, Trump was 100% in the latter category. The threat he posed was real, but not fascist. A fascist would not have let the unprecedented opportunity on Jan 6 limp away. A fascist would not beg the courts to see things his way. A fascist would not sulk away to Mar-a-Largo on Inauguration Day.

More minimization. Think about how silly this sounds...

Trump tried to overthrow democracy
Trump threatens political opponents with imprisonment
Trump unleashed his army to inflict violence on peaceful protesters
Trump urged followers to beat lawful protesters
Trump threatened the media with violence
Trump demonized minorities to whip up his followers
Trump utilized his alliance with neo nazis in a violent attempt to overturn the election

What a bully!​

Plus he's a meanie!

"Bully" falls woefully short.

Trump was several levels too weak to ever even approach fascism. That's why, for all the swooning and hyperbolic rhetoric, neither he nor his ever-dwindling followers sported armbands with a black T on them and made a serious run at power. They don't even want it.

We're fortunate that he's not a more savvy and capable wannabe fascist. We're also fortunate that the recent changes to state election laws weren't in place.

 

[Lurch]

To be sure, this 'bully' contributed much to making the next 'bully's' coup easier.

 

[gnome]

To be sure, this 'bully' contributed much to making the next 'bully's' coup easier.

As much as I worry, not so much a foregone conclusion. It also exposed the weaknesses to everybody else. Fascists are not the only ones that can respond to the information.

 

[Thermal]

More minimization. Think about how silly this sounds...

Trump tried to overthrow democracy​

He didn't.

Trump threatens political opponents with imprisonment

Not credibly. Talk is cheap.

Trump unleashed his army to inflict violence on peaceful protesters

He doesn't have an army to unleash. Except maybe the US Army? In which case, he didn't.

Trump urged followers to beat lawful protesters

Talk remains cheap. Fascists actually do it.

Trump threatened the media with violence

Again, fascists don't impotently bleat about it. They actually do it.

Trump demonized minorities to whip up his followers

He did. Not fascist though. Just racist.

Trump utilized his alliance with neo nazis in a violent attempt to overturn the election

He has no 'alliance', in any meaningful sense, nor did neo-Nazis attempt to overturn anything in any meaningful way.

What a bully!

Plus he's a meanie!

"Bully" falls woefully short.

We're fortunate that he's not a more savvy and capable wannabe fascist. We're also fortunate that the recent changes to state election laws weren't in place.

The line that separates the bully from the fascist starts around action more than talk. Trump was all talk. When push came to shove, like on Jan 6 or inauguration day, he did nothing at all where an actual fascist would, and be relishing the silver platter it was served up to him on.

Talk is cheap. Trump talked, then slunk away. But yet again, that doesn't mean his threat was impotent. It was and is very real. Its just not a fascist, *political* threat. He is the poster boy for the Rise of the Stupid Bigot. That's a problem, but a social one. They will not be invading Canada.

 

[Stacyhs]

Christ, even with the Prez's 4-year schedule it seems there's hardly a goddamned breather before the next run is being yammered on and on about. Here we are only a half year into the current term and already 2024 is occupying the minds of many. Little wonder bugger all gets done, what with pols being in near continuous campaign mode. Insane, how the Yanks carry on in their politics. All election matters should by law be restricted to some sensible period before election day; two months would be plenty.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

He didn't.

Not credibly. Talk is cheap.

He doesn't have an army to unleash. Except maybe the US Army? In which case, he didn't.

Talk remains cheap. Fascists actually do it.

Again, fascists don't impotently bleat about it. They actually do it.

He did. Not fascist though. Just racist.

He has no 'alliance', in any meaningful sense, nor did neo-Nazis attempt to overturn anything in any meaningful way.

The line that separates the bully from the fascist starts around action more than talk. Trump was all talk. When push came to shove, like on Jan 6 or inauguration day, he did nothing at all where an actual fascist would, and be relishing the silver platter it was served up to him on.

Talk is cheap. Trump talked, then slunk away. But yet again, that doesn't mean his threat was impotent. It was and is very real. Its just not a fascist, *political* threat. He is the poster boy for the Rise of the Stupid Bigot. That's a problem, but a social one. They will not be invading Canada.

This is the same argument we went round and round on at the beginning of this thread:

Do you need an army for Dump's actions to be a coup? It didn't go anywhere because there wasn't something that changed minds on either side. Was a wannabe coup a coup?

I'm not sure if you could make the same argument over whether Dump is a fascist or just a bully. I don't think one needs an army to be a fascist. Dump is a wannabe dictator, that is for sure. He is a bully as well, that is for certain.

I'm on the side that a coup requires an army but I can see the argument people were making on the other side. Is an attempted but failed coup a coup? If the answer to that is yes then Dump's piddly little band of idiots who he stirred up enough to actually storm the Capitol and believe they could keep Dump in power with a revolution is enough to make it a coup.

If it was no more than a fantasy coup Dump tried to pull off but he knew damn well he didn't have that army, then it wasn't a coup.

I think Dump fluctuates between believing and knowingly fantasizing. He believed when the piddles were attacking; we know this because he thought other people in the WH would be as ecstatic as he was that an attack was being carried out. But I bet he swung right back into that devastated "I lost" POV real quick.

Now he's back to believing but that's another topic.

 

[Thermal]

This is the same argument we went round and round on at the beginning of this thread:

Do you need an army for Dump's actions to be a coup? It didn't go anywhere because there wasn't something that changed minds on either side. Was a wannabe coup a coup?

I'm not sure if you could make the same argument over whether Dump is a fascist or just a bully. I don't think one needs an army to be a fascist. Dump is a wannabe dictator, that is for sure. He is a bully as well, that is for certain.

I'm on the side that a coup requires an army but I can see the argument people were making on the other side. Is an attempted but failed coup a coup? If the answer to that is yes then Dump's piddly little band of idiots who he stirred up enough to actually storm the Capitol and believe they could keep Dump in power with a revolution is enough to make it a coup.

If it was no more than a fantasy coup Dump tried to pull off but he knew damn well he didn't have that army, then it wasn't a coup.

I think Dump fluctuates between believing and knowingly fantasizing. He believed when the piddles were attacking; we know this because he thought other people in the WH would be as ecstatic as he was that an attack was being carried out. But I bet he swung right back into that devastated "I lost" POV real quick.

Now he's back to believing but that's another topic.

I don't think he needs a formal army per se. But credible force is an absolute necessity. He simply had none. His followers were too weak and uncommitted to do much of anything, in the big picture. A lot of shouting, but at throw down time, they simply didn't.

Jan 6 was the opportunity, like none we have ever seen before. Even the most tentative wannabe kinda-sorta fascist would have seized that moment. A bully would say " Oh **** I'm going to hide". Which did he do?

In each and every opportunity, he took the non-fascist and cowardly way out. He was talk and little else. My fear remains of an *actual* neo-fascist to step up, not the all bluster schoolyard bully who is too weak to throw down.