The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-Opened

[Andy_Ross]

UK is a signatory because there were UK citizens aboard.

It is a mass grave, the restrictions are to deter treasure and souvenir hunters from disturbing it.

 

[Vixen]

This is what happens when a torpedo hits a ship.

Ex Australian Navy HMAS Torrens being sunk as part of a training exercise.

She was a Leander Class Frigate, a Royal Navy design but also used by Australia and Netherlands navies.

You do know that 'torpedo' is a generic word? Some torpedos are just crude mines, others are from the air, yet others are via submarines. Not all torpedoes aim to break a ship in half, although that is what the military might do to an enemy ship in wartime conditions.

 

[Andy_Ross]

No a torpedo in modern parlance has one meaning. An underwater ranged weapon launched above or below the water surface, self-propelled towards a target, and with an explosive warhead designed to detonate either on contact with or in proximity to the target.

Yes torpedoes can be air dropped, they are the same as those fired from tubes on ships and submarines. One of the main anti sub weapons systems in use is air dropped torpedoes. Ships helicopters carry them.

OK so we can rule out a torpedo as sinking the Estonia, what then? a mine? how would the people laying the mine know it was in the right place? how would they stop some other random ship from hitting it?

So we can rule out mines.

That leave a bomb of some kind planted on the ship. It seems a big coincidence that the bomb went off just at the same time the bow fell of the ship. Unless the bomb was on the bow visor but then, wouldn't the crew have spotted it?

 

[Vixen]

If compartments were water tight then water could not enter and there would be no need for bilge pumps. Does not the phrase "water in the water tight compartments" strike you as a little odd?

Watertight from being impinged from the upper decks, such as a car deck.

The bilge pumps are there as a safety net. If you have ever been in a rowing boat or speed boat, or even a yacht, you'll know that water getting in is not at all uncommon.

 

[Vixen]

I chose that example because it's sinking had similar characteristics. Free surface effect on the car deck. In that instance though the captain and crew did a far better job than the crew of the Estonia did.

Do you think all of the hundred or more ships that sink every year are all old or sink in typhoons?

Who gives a **** about the titanic? It was a different ship in different circumstances. For a start it was a much bigger ship and it sank in calm weather. How long would it have lasted in a storm?

Face it Estonia was faulty, it's bows fell off in a storm, it took thousands of tons of water on to the car deck which capsized it and it sank.

Ships sink all the time.

The shipbuilders, Werft, strongly dispute this. It even offered to salvage the ship up at their own expense and were declined. It has nothing to lose as the bow welds were done before the regulations came into effect, so are not liable anyway. It disputes a design fault or weak materials. It has a conflict of interest in protecting its reputation. However, the welded lugs in the ram were welded off by divers, when the entire frame should have been brought up. The engineer diver, simply looked at them measured them, and then left them on the sea bed.

Likewise, the bow visor was recovered without the three locking systems.

 

[Andy_Ross]

When water is flooding on through the bow and cascading down stairways to the lower decks the pumps are more than a 'safety net'
If water was getting in to compartments they weren't watertight.
Do we know the condition of the openings in to the compartments? Were vents and hatches secured? What was the condition of the seals on hatches?
What was the condition of the glands for cables and piping going through bulkheads and deck heads?
Remember 'free surface effect' a part full compartment on a rolling ship is more of a danger than a completely flooded one.
What did thousands of tons of water high up in the ship do to the stability of the ship?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Ferries on their regular runs in suitable weather are stable enough to keep cars from sliding together. Has someone claimed otherwise?

Yes, but I see we are talking past each other.

... When I was a kid we used to travel five days on a ship called the Baltica. Across the North Sea, it gets extremely rough, you are literally thrown from one side to the other, with your dinner plate following shortly after. Just because there is a violent lilt, that isn't necessarily cause for anyone to stop brushing their teeth and panic.

When I was a kid, we didn't even have mobile phones. Ships in rough weather just tossed about in the waves..

Yeah, that's what happened. The ship started to list and this particular man stopped to brush his teeth. He got out and survived to tell us this but his mother and girlfriend did not get out.

This is the ship we used to travel to Finland by via Tilbury. How is it 'fantasy' that we were tossed like a bag of potatoes in a storm?...

...
Stabilisers will not stop you being tossed like a bag of potatoes in a storm'.
They reduce short pitch beam rolling for passenger comfort.

They are useless in a head or stern sea, they are useless, they will not damp out storm effects.

I believe you but how do they keep the vehicles from sliding into each other?

Sometimes they don’t.

So you take a ferry and end up with a car that has smashed sides? And how do they get them off the ferry if the vehicles are against each other?

No, that just can't be factual. Sorry, not logical.

By not going out in a storm that would cause rolling far enough to move the vehicles.

This exchange started when I said the guy who stopped to brush his teeth when the ferry was listing was odd because he should have been freaked out at the list.

Vixen was saying it was normal to slide all over. Instead of you or Captain Swoop saying simply "but not ferries, on a ferry it would not be normal" the exchange continued as if it was common or at least occurred occasionally.

Given the exchange started when I said the guy brushing his teeth with the listing ferry, folks not attuned to that initial issue probably didn't understand my issue: i.e. talking past each other.

I think we're good here.

 

[Vixen]

You mentioned two other ferries that were in the Baltic at the same time and commented that they didn't sink.
We know, their bows didn't fall off.

Yes, and they were built in similar high world standard shipyards:

Viking Mariella: the Wärtsilä Perno shipyard in Turku

Silja Europa: was built at Meyer Werft in Papenburg, 1993.

...just like the Estonia.


So how come there have been no issues with their bow visors?

 

[Andy_Ross]

If you have ever been in a rowing boat or speed boat, or even a yacht, you'll know that water getting in is not at all uncommon.

I have spent years on ships and boats. Warships, cargo ships, tankers, sailing yachts and power boats.
I have weathered winter storms in the Atlantic when the ship was moving so much it was dangerous to try and walk along a passageway. Butting in to waves that came solid over the bow then falling in to the trough with the props out of the water.

Please don't try and tell me how water getting is 'not at all uncommon'

the difference is I was never in a ship that had the bows fall off.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

"A gust of wind blew the wing off the plane".



Oh, that's all right then.

No, and this was addressed already.

Nobody, by virtue of mentioning the bow visor breaking off, is suggesting a wave was, all by itself, necessary and sufficient cause.

You are taking extreme liberties with other people getting tired of offering a verbose explanation that you'll disregard anyways.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Yes, and they were built in similar high world standard shipyards:

Viking Mariella: the Wärtsilä Perno shipyard in Turku

Silja Europa: was built at Meyer Werft in Papenburg, 1993.

...just like the Estonia.


So how come there have been no issues with their bow visors?

Maybe they were built to a different specification or better serviced or operated in a different way.
Maybe there was a fault in the construction of the components.


What is a 'high world standard' shipyard?

 

[Delphic Oracle]

That's your projection.

Projection arrived when you mentioned "halo effect."

 

[Vixen]

UK is a signatory because there were UK citizens aboard.

It is a mass grave, the restrictions are to deter treasure and souvenir hunters from disturbing it.

There were citizens from all over the world, including Nigeria, Belarus, Canada, Latvia, Morocco, Germany, Russia, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Lithuania, the Netherlands, Norway and Britain, of whom one died and one survived, Paul Barney.

So your theory - which you have plucked from the air - is wrong. Germany is actually on the Baltic coast at its northern end but is not a signatory.

Wow, talk about half-baked speculation! At least all my facts are checked. No wonder you call it 'fantasy' as you are judging others by your own standards.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

There were citizens from all over the world, including Nigeria, Belarus, Canada, Latvia, Morocco, Germany, Russia, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Lithuania, the Netherlands, Norway and Britain, of whom one died and one survived, Paul Barney.



So your theory - which you have plucked from the air - is wrong. Germany is actually on the Baltic coast at its northern end but is not a signatory.


Wow, talk about half-baked speculation! At least all my facts are checked. No wonder you call it 'fantasy' as you are judging others by your own standards.

WAT?!

Was this ever in question?

Who has stated a theory that Germany has no coastline?

ETA: stating the reasons why one country of origin of the victims chose to sign doesn't imply all countries did or that they all had the same reason.

Stop trying to "gotcha" every tiny thing.

 

[Vixen]

I have spent years on ships and boats. Warships, cargo ships, tankers, sailing yachts and power boats.
I have weathered winter storms in the Atlantic when the ship was moving so much it was dangerous to try and walk along a passageway. Butting in to waves that came solid over the bow then falling in to the trough with the props out of the water.

Please don't try and tell me how water getting is 'not at all uncommon'

the difference is I was never in a ship that had the bows fall off.

Then why dismiss it as an every day non-occurrence?

 

[Vixen]

WAT?!

Was this ever in question?

Who has stated a theory that Germany has no coastline?

Captain_Swoop claimed that the UK "is a signatory because there were UK citizens aboard."


Which is utter nonsense. Do keep up!

 

[Andy_Ross]

I am not dismissing it as anything.

It is what it is.

You seem to be dancing around what you think happened.

If there was no 'foul play' then it is just another ship sinking due to failure of the hull.

It happens all the time. Two ships a week on average.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Captain_Swoop claimed that the UK "is a signatory because there were UK citizens aboard."


Which is utter nonsense. Do keep up!

Your reply to his mention of the U.K. was about Germany having Baltic coast.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur

 

[Vixen]

Your reply to his mention of the U.K. was about Germany having Baltic coast.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur

You may have noticed that the signatories to the M/S Estonia treaty, are all Baltic nations...excluding Germany, who declined to sign...and Britain, which is nowhere near the Baltic.

Do check your geography.

[credit: wikipedia]

 

[Vixen]

News update:

You can see thirteen photos in a gallery here of the latest ongoing investigation that started 8 July and is scheduled to finish tomorrow, although it might extend to a another couple of days.

Previous findings were that vehicle ramp was closed

This goes somewhat against previous findings, that the bow ramp was only partly open and the vehicle deck was only visible through a small gap.

"We can see today that there is no bow ramp in front [of the car deck] and we have a fully open entrance to the car deck."

News ERR ee


<snip>

He said: "As of today, we are only able to find that the bow ramp is not attached to its hinges, and is lying on the starboard side of the ship, supported in part by the hull."

<snip>

Arikas also stated the MS Estonia's propeller blades and rudder blades are intact.

He said: "The propeller blades are in the 'zero' position. Both rudder blades are also undamaged. Openings cut by divers can be seen in different places.

"The stern ramps are in the closed position, and the ship's stabilizers are not present; perhaps they have been drawn into the hull," he went on.

"To the north of the wreck, i.e. on the right-hand side, lies a long trench five to seven meters wide. There is sand at the bottom of this pit, and also large and small stones in places. The wall of this trench is relatively steep, presumably consisting of a clay-moraine mixture," he added.

<snip>

As to holes in the hull, Arikas noted at least one on the starboard side, passing downwards from the first deck (the MS Estonia lies in an upside-down attitude, i.e. with the deck almost face-down into the seabed – ed.).

The exact dimensions of this rupture cannot yet be gauged, due to being partly obscured by the seabed.

Other deformations and damage can be seen, he added.

[ibid]