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Cont: Rioters storm and occupy the US Capitol - part 2

portlandatheist said:
He is responsible for his words and actions, and his followers are responsible for theirs.
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Come on... so the guy that leads the insurrection but sits on the sideline when it happens isn't responsible for what those followers do?

They are both responsible. They would not be there doing what they did had Dump not promoted the Big Lie.
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
Come on... so the guy that leads the insurrection but sits on the sideline when it happens isn't responsible for what those followers do?

They are both responsible. They would not be there doing what they did had Dump not promoted the Big Lie.
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A numver of Mafia bigshots doing hard time in prison can tell you that if you order a crime commited, you are just as guilty in the eyes of the law as if you did it yourself.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Come on... so the guy that leads the insurrection but sits on the sideline when it happens isn't responsible for what those followers do?

They are both responsible. They would not be there doing what they did had Dump not promoted the Big Lie.
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Trump's guilt doesn't absolve the guilt of any of the capital rioters. That is the point I was trying to making, I'm not absolving Trump of any guilt.
 
Roger Ramjets said:
I mean, who did Hitler personally kill? He might have 'suggested' to other people that they do it for him, but they were all responsible for their own actions - right?

Trump's actions caused the insurrection. He lied and lied and lied to his followers, and their only sin was believing him - The President of the United States.

So you say that Trump is responsible for his words and actions, but when has he ever taken responsibility for the things he said and did? When will he be held responsible for them, and be made to pay for his sins? I bet never. All the poor saps who believed him will pay for their credulousness, but Trump will get off scot-free.
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When the rioters end up in court, they repeat what Trump said as if that would give them some sympathy or leniency. It doesn't work that way. Trump has never took responsibility for anything in his entire life.
 
Pizzeria Owner Mounts Truly Bizarre Defense for Jan. 6 Riots
Not only is she representing herself, she’s using far-out “sovereign citizen” talking points to claim she is immune from prosecution.

“A Pennsylvania woman who allegedly stormed the Capitol and told a police officer to ‘bring Nancy Pelosi out here now… we want to hang that ******* bitch’ has filed court documents claiming to be a divinely empowered entity immune from laws.”

thedailybeast.com
 
sir drinks-a-lot said:
Screen-Shot-2021-07-11-at-8.24.42-AM-600x552.png
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Do you agree with all these points?
Screenshot 2021-07-12 115016.jpg

1) Get the terminology correct BLM protests vs attempted violent sedition in the Capitol - it wasn't just a riot, but an attempt to overturn the democratic process.

2) What about comparing like with like? Some riots at a nationwide series of protests compared to a single instance? It would be more fair to compare it to the riots by Trump supporters dating back to the "Unite the Right" riots.

3) Trump encouraged the Capitol rioters before doing what he does best, which is try to throw them under the bus. Other prominent Republicans did also and their condemnation has been half hearted at best.

4) See 3

5)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_and_controversies_during_the_George_Floyd_protests

A lot of the deaths were of opportunistic looters. There was also violence by right-wingers most notably the Boogaloo shootings. Also:

At least 50 incidents of vehicles driving into crowds of protesters were recorded from May 27 to June 17, with four ruled accidental and five involving police officers. Since 2015, such actions have been encouraged against Black Lives Matter protests by "Run Them Over" and "All Lives Splatter" memes online, as well as items posted on Fox News and on social media by police officers.[285][286]
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According to a Twitter spokesperson, an account pretending to belong to a national "antifa" organization and pushing violent rhetoric related to ongoing protests has been linked to the white nationalist group Identity Evropa; Identity Evropa denied the claims.[290] According to an internal FBI situation report on the May 31 protests, individuals from a far-right social media group had "called for far-right provocateurs to attack federal agents, use automatic weapons against protesters."[291]
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6) One person dead in the Capitol? What about Rosanne Boyland - who was trampled to death whilst having a "don't step on me" banner? Also Babbitt gave the police no option but to shoot in self-defence.

7) Damage to Federal property? Even your post points out the difference in scale and numbers - look at the numbers of completely peaceful protests - or even look at the difference in response to the Washington protest compared to the Capitol riot.

8) Examples please

9) Examples please - maybe you'll be able to spot the difference. Also several BLM protestors were illegally arrested, which would have been ironic but simply proved their point.


10) Really?
 
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Belz... said:
Wow, do you get yourself to sleep with all that dishonesty? I mean, presumably you know that's all a lie couched in technical truths, right?
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Some technical truths, and a few which stray into blatant lies.
 
Salon: Ashli Babbitt is Donald Trump's Horst Wessel

Every revolutionary movement needs a martyr and it appears that the MAGA revolution has finally found one for itself.

Ashli Babbit, the Jan. 6th insurrectionist who was shot by a security guard as she climbed through a broken window just a few feet away from members of Congress, is Donald Trump's Horst Wessel, the German brownshirt who was murdered in 1930 and turned into a martyr by the Nazi propaganda chief Joseph Goebbels. Trump himself is making the case for Babbit, having mentioned her in every appearance he's made in the last week.

At his recent Florida rally, Trump wondered: "Who shot Ashli Babbit? We all saw the hand... Now they don't want to give the name." At his press conference on Wednesday in which he announced his laughable "class action" lawsuit against the Big Tech companies, he went a little bit farther saying, "there were no guns in the Capitol except for the gun that shot Ashli Babbitt. And nobody knows who that man were...the person that shot Ashli Babbitt right through the head, just boom. There was no reason for that." Then this past weekend he went all the way, describing the insurrection as a love fest and Babbit as an innocent victim in an interview with Fox Business host Maria Bartiromo:

Bartiromo took the ball and ran with it, saying that Babbitt climbed out of a broken window (as if she was trying to escape the vicious gunman) after which both she and Trump speculated that the officer who shot Babbitt was part of a Democratic official's security detail, casually mentioning Chuck Schumer in the process. The implication was obvious: the Democrats shot Ashli Babbitt for no good reason. The fact that we have all seen the footage of the shooting is irrelevant: We can believe them or we can believe our lying eyes.
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No doubt about it now. Trump and the insurrectionists are out to make Babbitt the Horst Wessel of their movement. All they need now is a March and a blood banner...
 
Is there really no historically similar references besides Nazi related ones to compare things to when it comes to anything Trump related?
 
rdwight said:
Is there really no historically similar references besides Nazi related ones to compare things to when it comes to anything Trump related?
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Probably. It's just that the Nazi comparisons are likely the most accurate.

Just to review for a moment, though... Trump's personality seems to be fairly close to a mirror of Hitler's personality. Trump pointedly used the same tactics as Hitler - which shouldn't be too surprising, given that he was taught to do so. Given the similarity of tactics, it should then be no surprise that his actions invoke shades of Hitler. How Trump ran the government was far too much like Hitler did for comfort. The direction that Trump led the country was far too much like the direction that Hitler led Germany.

Trump's not Hitler, but there's far too much in common, which means that Nazi comparisons tend to be disturbingly close.
 
I think it's because those of us in the US anyway know a lot more about Hitler than other dictators in history.

Curious if our friends here from the EU who know more about Mussolini or even Franco would picture Dump as a different dictator wannabe?
 
Belz... said:
Wow, do you get yourself to sleep with all that dishonesty? I mean, presumably you know that's all a lie couched in technical truths, right?
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Well he's quoting from PJM, so presumably he knows it's untrue or, at best, heavily distorted and biased.
 
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