Useful Idiots of the Day

[Mycroft]

I very much doubt that a Palestinian (even a reasonable one i.e. not an extremist) would agree with that. I don't think Palestinians in general would feel much respect coming either from you or Webfusion, but what do I know?

Webfusion's comments were directed towards the actions, you're the one who interpreted them as being directed at the people.

Now, you have to be careful with something: which Palestinians are you talking about?

In context, RandFan's meaning was clear.

Another thing: opposing Palestinian extremists doesn't imply that you have to support every stupid thing Israel does, a little something a few people on this forum tend to forget.

Like every government in the world, Israel's government does some things I agree with, and some things I don't agree with. In these forums, I'm mostly concerned with opposing highly biased anti-Israel propaganda than I am in sharing my opinion on any specific Israeli policy.

 

[RandFan]

Now, you have to be careful with something: which Palestinians are you talking about?

My information comes completely from western news sources so I admit that I could have a skewed view. I have not seen much if any Palestinian rhetoric that calls for peace with Israel. I'm careful not to label any group as monolithic but it's difficult to find any thought that seeks peace with Israel from Palestinians and most muslims for that mater of fact. There are of course exceptions.

Another thing: opposing Palestinian extremists doesn't imply that you have to support every stupid thing the Israeli gov. does, a little something a few people on this forum tend to forget.

I certainly don't support everything Israel does. I have started a number of threads critical of Israel, their policies and the fact that they helped introduce terror as a means to an end especially as part of their inception. I don't contribute much to these threads because I think the issue quite intractable because of both sides. However there is democracy of thought amongst Israelis and many call for a separate state for Palestinians and many call for an end to the violence and hope for peace.

I see no democracy of thought coming from Palestinians. I see no reason for hope from them. I'm confident that should Israel concede to most of their demands and should Israel stop retaliating that the violence will not end. I would be very happy to be shown wrong.

 

[webfusion]

what is it about?

Orwell throws in his 2¢ once again and completely misses the mark ---
"Unlike Skeptic, I don't claim to be able to guess what people think."

Using the best evidence available, it is entirely realistic to claim to know what people think. I see a keffiya draped around the shoulders of released-hostage Kate, I think she is sympathetic to the terrorist thugs who kidnapped her. Her statements are not in the form of "These terrorists from the Mujahadeen Brigades are ruthless maniacs, and their demands for Israel to cease their Operation Blue Sky are unreasonable on their face ---- Israel is defending itself against missiles launched at their population from non-occupied Gaza."

That is what a "peace activist" should say under the circumstances, because it is the TRUTH.

But, because she wants to continue working among the Palestinians in Gaza, she knows that expressing the truth like this would get her shot (your assumption) --- IMO, this is an incredible way of looking at it. She becomes no more than an accessory to the terrorists, by not condeming them.
No wonder Israel restricts useful idiots like Keffiya Kate from entering the country (sometimes).

((((eta -- more often than not, they are permitted, even with the knowledge of the Israeli Secret Service that the actions of these 'peace activists' are likely to be in conflict with the IDF and may be harmful to the overall security of the State of Israel. The ISM members being cases in point... )))))

Now, as for my comment about the "palestinian struggle" ------ I am saying that launching rockets at Israel, blowing up UN buildings, shooting at Israeli civilians while they are driving on the roads, and other miscellaneous acts of barbarism, are a joke, a sick sick joke, because it gets them nowhere.

Maalot. Munich. Achille Lauro. Bus 5. ElAl terminal, Rome.
on and on and on and on....

For what? To get the Israelis to vacate the 'palestinian lands' just back to the 1949 Rhodes Armistice Lines? Is that what you think, Orwell? Is that what would make the palestinian people happy? Is that what it would take for Israel to live in peace and prosperity with the palestinians the world over? Is that what the palestinians terrorists/freedom fighters are struggling for? Gaza and the West Bank? That's the goal?
Is that what you think?

Be careful now, this thread is titled, "Useful Idiots of the Day" ------

"that wasn't what I was talking about either." says Orwell.
So what are you talking about? I keep forgetting...

 

[Orwell]

Using the best evidence available, it is entirely realistic to claim to know what people think. I see a keffiya draped around the shoulders of released-hostage Kate, I think she is sympathetic to the terrorist thugs who kidnapped her. Her statements are not in the form of "These terrorists from the Mujahadeen Brigades are ruthless maniacs, and their demands for Israel to cease their Operation Blue Sky are unreasonable on their face ---- Israel is defending itself against missiles launched at their population from non-occupied Gaza."

That is what a "peace activist" should say under the circumstances, because it is the TRUTH.

So she's sympathetic to terrorists because she had a keffiya draped around her shoulders... Okee-dokee...

But, because she wants to continue working among the Palestinians in Gaza, she knows that expressing the truth like this would get her shot (your assumption) --- IMO, this is an incredible way of looking at it. She becomes no more than an accessory to the terrorists, by not condeming them.
No wonder Israel restricts useful idiots like Keffiya Kate from entering the country (sometimes).

Webbie, that was a supposition. Something I said that I thought could explain her behaviour... My point was that Skeptic's little tirade was just more partisan hackery: he was interpreting the facts in a way that fitted his particular prejudices concerning peace activists. I re-interpreted the facts differently, but unlike Skeptic (or you) I never pretended that my particular interpretation was the right one.

((((eta -- more often than not, they are permitted, even with the knowledge of the Israeli Secret Service that the actions of these 'peace activists' are likely to be in conflict with the IDF and may be harmful to the overall security of the State of Israel. The ISM members being cases in point... )))))

That's not what what I said. Israel lets them in, but Israel often makes it hard for them to stay, or to get back in. I know that, I read the news.

Now, as for my comment about the "palestinian struggle" ------ I am saying that launching rockets at Israel, blowing up UN buildings, shooting at Israeli civilians while they are driving on the roads, and other miscellaneous acts of barbarism, are a joke, a sick sick joke, because it gets them nowhere.

Maalot. Munich. Achille Lauro. Bus 5. ElAl terminal, Rome.
on and on and on and on....

If you say that the Palestinian struggle is a joke, you are dismissing even those (Palestinians and others) that fight the occupation by non-violent "legitimate" means. Some of those terrorist actions you named happened decades ago. Apparently, you seem to think that every single Palestinian is guilty of his ancestors crimes, along with present day extremism. I'm well aware that many Palestinians have about as much contempt for Israel as you have for Palestinians... You obviously think you're better than them. I think you're just like them.

For what? To get the Israelis to vacate the 'palestinian lands' just back to the 1949 Rhodes Armistice Lines? Is that what you think, Orwell? Is that what would make the palestinian people happy? Is that what it would take for Israel to live in peace and prosperity with the palestinians the world over? Is that what the palestinians terrorists/freedom fighters are struggling for? Gaza and the West Bank? That's the goal?
Is that what you think?

I'm a favour of a two state solution, it seems like the logical thing to do at this point. I do not know if that would solve the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, but I am pretty sure that the status quo will only produce more violence and lead nowhere.

Be careful now, this thread is titled, "Useful Idiots of the Day" ------

You threatening me or something?

 

[Mycroft]

Some of those terrorist actions you named happened decades ago. Apparently, you seem to think that every single Palestinian is guilty of his ancestors crimes, along with present day extremism.

You keep missing the point. You take these words out of context and it may seem as though he's making every Palestinian guilty of his ancestor's crime, but in context he is defending his statement that their struggle is a joke.

It doesn't matter how long ago these events happened, they are examples of Palestinian actions that did not advance their cause and that only made them look bad.

You should make a greater effort to understand what the other person is saying.

 

[webfusion]

2 states are better than one?

I'm a favour of a two state solution, it seems like the logical thing to do at this point.

What do you mean, at this point? Where have you been for the past half-century?
In 1948 all the Arabs rejected the 2-state offer. War ensued.
By 1949, the Rhodes Armistice Agreements created the de-facto two-state lines. No Palestinian government came out of it, during nearly two decades afterwards.

In 1967, the Arabs, while having possession of the major part of Palestine (including the entire lands of the original Palestine Mandate given to the Hashemite Bedouins, with Jerusalem, it should be recalled) decided to go to war and take it all. The Arab march to war was openly declared. For sure, it was no secret. To the Arab's great surprise, the Israelis would not sit still for that.
http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/middleeast/Arab-Israeli_Conflict_3_Six_Day_War.asp

After the war, Israel expressed its willingness to give up most of the territory it had won in exchange for a guarantee of peace.
The Arabs took it upon themselves to respectfully decline this offer, and issued the 3-No's of Khartoum.

• no peace with Israel, no negotiations with Israel, no recognition of Israel and maintenance of the 'rights of the Palestinian people' in their nation (meaning ALL of palestine, without Israel).

In 1973, the Arab nations of Syria and Egypt, those two great champions of the palestinians, who just a few years earlier had their Armies whipped, jumped right back into the fray.

And lost another war that was designed (and designed pretty well, actually) to annihilate Israel. Only a few critical errors from the Arab commanders allowed the Israelis to obtain the upper hand eventually.
Otherwise, the "two-state solution" would have been moot. Israel would have ceased to exist, totally, of that I have no doubt.

In 1993, the two-state solution was brought to the table again, and agreements signed to negotiate it.
http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/maps/oslo.html

By 2000, with that 2-state deal in shambles, and Arafat refusing to move ahead and figure out any possible way to salvage things for his Palestinian Authority, Israel was forced back to war.

That war, (a war of attrition, which the Arabs think they can win), is ongoing today. It is not a war fought exclusively by the Palestinian terrorists, it is being fought and supported by islamic radicals in neighboring states as well - (Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Libya, etc).

Two states? Maybe in the next generation, after the venom of this generation is spent.
What do you think, we Israelis are dummies? The status quo is preferable to a HAMASTAN. This is not the first war of attrition we have faced. So far, we're doing pretty well, and winning. If we need to expend additional energy and effort, we will, and the Palestinians will lose even more. For sure.

If the palestinians gather themselves as a people, as a citizenry committed to peace, and a demilitarized State, by publicly opposing the maniacidal, homocidal islamic mujahadeen and jihadists, they have a chance.
If not .. pfffft.

What about that is not clear?

Thank you for playing, as a parting gift, we have the JREF Home Game for you to take with you.

 

[Orwell]

Two states? Maybe in the next generation, after the venom of this generation is spent.
What do you think, we Israelis are dummies? The status quo is preferable to a HAMASTAN. This is not the first war of attrition we have faced. So far, we're doing pretty well, and winning. If we need to expend additional energy and effort, we will, and the Palestinians will lose even more. For sure.

Well, I hope that Webbie doesn't speak for all Israelis... Because if all Israelis agree with Webbie, then there's no hope. He talks about "the next generation, after the venom of this generation is spent." He doesn't consider that present day extremism coming from both camps is pretty much making sure that future generations will be as filled with hate, resentment and bile as the present generation is...

If the palestinians gather themselves as a people, as a citizenry committed to peace, and a demilitarized State, by publicly opposing the maniacidal, homocidal islamic mujahadeen and jihadists, they have a chance.
If not .. pfffft.

What about that is not clear?

In other words, all Palestinians are to blame for the sins of the extremists, and all Palestinians shall pay for the crimes of the extremists. What if indiscriminate Israeli abuses, all committed in the name of Israeli security, are actually prolonging the conflict by feeding the extremists with the martyrs and cannon fodder they need?

 

[Orwell]

Webbie's last post is a nice example of his schizophrenia concerning this subject: one moment he's going on about Palestinians

as just average people, trying to do their best for their families & for themselves, and I can imagine myself and my wife in that crowd, as if it was a PTA meeting in our son's school. I have no hate for these people. I have every amount of empathy and respect for them.

And then, on a few occasions, the mask falls and he goes:

Screw them, and screw the civilians who think they can go out to the streets of gaza, or ramallah or damascus or beirut and cheer the terrorists as heros, with no penalties or deterrance facing them from any quarter.

So what is it Webbie? Make up your mind!

 

[Freakshow]

In other words, all Palestinians are to blame for the sins of the extremists...

All? No. Enough to win elections? It appears so.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10496166

 

[Orwell]

All? No. Enough to win elections? It appears so.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10496166

Tell me, why do you think Islamic militants are getting this much support? I want some actual analysis, not just the usual "Palestinians baaad" malarkey.

 

[Mycroft]

Tell me, why do you think Islamic militants are getting this much support? I want some actual analysis, not just the usual "Palestinians baaad" malarky.

Because for 60 years they've been brainwashed to give the extremists support.

 

[Orwell]

Because for 60 years they've been brainwashed to give the extremists support.

So it's entirely the Palestinian's responsibility?

What if indiscriminate Israeli abuses, all committed in the name of Israeli security, are actually prolonging the conflict by feeding the extremists with the martyrs and cannon fodder they need?

 

[Freakshow]

Because for 60 years they've been brainwashed to give the extremists support.

Yep, Mycroft beat me to it.

 

[Orwell]

Yep, Mycroft beat me to it.

That also begs a couple of simple questions: who's been doing the brainwashing, and most importantly, why do Palestinians believe in this alleged brainwashing you're talking about? According to you, they're very receptive to extremist ideas. Why is that so?

 

[Freakshow]

So it's entirely the Palestinian's responsibility?

AlJazeera shares some blame. So do some of the other nations in the area. Like the madrassas in SA. People grow up being brainwashed, it fits the news they are hearing, and the thoughts, lies, and attitude go through the region.

 

[Freakshow]

That also begs a simple question: who's been doing the brainwashing, and most importantly, why do Palestinians believe in this alleged brainwashing?

Partially answered by my next post. Let me know how it falls short, but I'll probably have to get around to answering it tomorrow.

Happy New Year, Orwell!

 

[Orwell]

All Jazeera began broadcasting in late 1996. Islamic extremism is a relatively recent arrival in the area, there was Palestinian terrorism way before there was Islamic extremism and Al Jazeera. Which neighbouring countries are you talking about?

 

[Orwell]

Happy new year, Freakshow.

 

[Mycroft]

That also begs a couple of simple questions: who's been doing the brainwashing, and most importantly, why do Palestinians believe in this alleged brainwashing you're talking about? According to you, they're very receptive to extremist ideas. Why is that so?

Orwell, do you have any information or are you only capable of speculating out loud?

 

[zenith-nadir]

That also begs a couple of simple questions: who's been doing the brainwashing,

I wouldn't call it brainwashing. It has been known for a long time that the Palestinian Authority school textbooks have encouraged values and ideologies incompatable with peace.

The Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace:

...has published 10 reports to-date on the following countries in the region: Egypt, Israel, Palestinian National Authority (PNA), Saudi Arabia and Syria.

They found that the Palestinian Authority schoolbooks incite hatred, violence and anti-Semitism. They found through analysis over the past six or seven years that Palestinian Authority schoolbooks de-legitimized Israel as a state and Israel is portrayed as a foreign colonial occupier. The Palestinian Authority schoolbooks do not even show Israel's existence on school maps which only show "Palestine". Instead of seizing an opportunity to educate future generations of Palestinians to live with Israel in peace, the PA has done everything in its power to teach hatred to young minds.

You are free not believe me Orwell...you are free to go to The Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace website and read the schoolbook reports for yourself. All I would say is if you do it then you may understand something you obviously know nothing about.

...and most importantly, why do Palestinians believe in this alleged brainwashing you're talking about? According to you, they're very receptive to extremist ideas. Why is that so?

Because it is drilled into their heads as a child, see: above. And when they are old enough it is drilled into their heads as adults.

The Middle East Media Research Institute:

....explores the Middle East through the region's media. MEMRI bridges the language gap which exists between the West and the Middle East, providing timely translations of Arabic, Farsi, and Hebrew media, as well as original analysis of political, ideological, intellectual, social, cultural, and religious trends in the Middle East.

They found that the Palestinian Authority official media and public sermons ALSO incited hatred and violence, they deligitimized Israel and are entirely anti-Semitic. Here is one such official Friday sermon on Palestinian Authority TV....this is after how many peace treaties the PA signed with Israel? Yet this is what the PA shows and pays for on their TV stations in 2005! Even under Abbas.

May 17, 2005

The following are excerpts from this week's official Friday sermon on Palestinian Authority (PA) TV. The preacher is Sheik Ibrahim Mudeiris, a paid employee of the PA.

"Allah has tormented us with 'the people most hostile to the believers' – the Jews. 'Thou shalt find that the people most hostile to the believers to be the Jews and the polytheists.' Allah warned His beloved Prophet Muhammad about the Jews, who had killed their prophets, forged their Torah, and sowed corruption throughout their history.

"With the establishment of the state of Israel, the entire Islamic nation was lost, because Israel is a cancer spreading through the body of the Islamic nation, and because the Jews are a virus resembling AIDS, from which the entire world suffers.

"You will find that the Jews were behind all the civil strife in this world. The Jews are behind the suffering of the nations.

"Ask Britain what it did to the Jews in the early sixth century. What did they do to the Jews? They expelled them, tortured them, and prevented them from entering Britain for more than 300 years. All this was because of what the Jews did in Britain. Ask France what it did to the Jews. They tortured them, expelled them, and burned their Talmud....

I think you get the picture without me quoting all of this ******** garbage.

This is why the Palestinians have taken such an extremist path, because they are taught to. Like I said before don't believe me, go to the Middle East Media Research Institute and the Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace websites for yourself and read the reports in detail. They do all the hard work for you and translate the Palestinian schoolbooks and media into english with pretty pictures and streaming videos to boot.

Then come back to this debate Orwell actually "informed".