Merged General Holocaust denial discussion Part IV

[Belz...]

The idiot filmmaker is living in Austria with Russian missiles pointed right at him and on high alert, but he is completely oblivious to that.

And of course we have our missiles pointed right at the Russians.

And, just for the hell of it, we've been bombing the ME continuously for 30 years (40,000 bombs in 2017).

He and the rest of us are oblivious to all that. And, if we weren't oblivious we might be able to do something about it.

He is obsessed with a preposterous fantasy the Jews created in WW II (they also tried it in WW I - see Holohoax 101 - Introduction to the Holohoax) which even if it were true wouldn't amount to 1/10000 of the evil of the doomsday machine that we're living with right now.

And, who created the doomsday machine? I'll help you out, all of us, you supported the govt. that created it, along with the Soviets, your taxes paid for it, I worked on it.

The human race is unbelievably, almost magically, intelligent and creative, but it's also stupid and destructive. We'll be lucky if we don't destroy everything in the next 10 years.

This begs the question - why this obsession with the holohoax? What is the purpose? Here is the irony - this idiot, Ruzowitzky, is focusing on the imaginary evil of the holohoax to justify the real evil of the constant bombing of the ME, for the purpose of creating the greater Israel. This is the 2nd time the Jews have invaded Palestine, here's what they have to say about it ...
Deuteronomy 20:
16 As for the towns of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you must not let anything that breathes remain alive. 17 You shall annihilate them — the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites — just as the LORD your God has commanded,

What are you afraid of, Saggy? Can't answer my points and questions?

 

[Hans]

Don't forget he broke his pact with Russia too.

Of course but one of his most evil evil was his invasion of Luxembourg - I mean they had an army of 500 guys I think - no real threat. One could say yes they could have used it roads to attack the Allies then left the country but no....

Their history of resisting the Nazi was quite heroic. I use to live near Luxembourg and knew members of their military. Very interesting history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_occupation_of_Luxembourg_during_World_War_II

...and he had plans to attack Switzerland too

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tannenbaum

[IMGw=800]https://f4.bcbits.com/img/a3145897801_10.jpg[/IMGw]

All that and Hitler stated purpose to conquer lands in the East for Lebensraum

 

[Nessie]

(That's nonsense, btw, but I'd have to look it up)

Name and quote one witness, Jewish or Nazi, who worked inside one of the AR camps, Chelmno or the A-B Kremas and stated somethign other than gassings was taking place.

And, this is more to the point - And yet you cannot cite the testimony of even one that is not prima facie absurd. Prove me wrong.

How do you determine absurdity? How do you assess witness evidence?

Testimony of people on trial for their lives in hoax trials is worthless.

There was no use of the death penalty for the German trials.

Did you notice that the prosecutor questioning Ohlendorf in your post, Niktchenko, was the presiding judge at the Moscow trials of Zinoviev, et. al.?

Did you notice he was not the only person to question Ohlendorf?

My favorite of course is Elie Wiesel, who wrote a book about his year at Auschwitz when the Nazis were supposedly killing 10,000 Jews PER DAY in gas chambers disguised as shower rooms. Wiesel doesn't mention gas chambers, he wrote that the Nazis killed the Jews by tossing them alive into burning pits, one for children, one for adults. His preposterous lies won a Nobel Prize and he was the first director of the USHMM, thus every Jew is guilty of these degenerate lies.

Wiesel is not on the list, as he did not see what happened inside the Kremas. His is hearsay evidence.

There is endless preposterous 'testimony' about the holohoax, but there is no testimony about the hoax in the camps that is not prima facie absurd.

The denier claim of mass transports back out of those places, with millions not gassed and taken to other places, for which there is no evidence, is absurd and physically impossible.

And, there is not a shred of physical evidence. Unless you count the hoax gas chamber at Auschwitz, of course.

There are the remains of the Kremas and gas chambers at TII and Sobibor. There are also intact gas chambers as used for T4.

Foremost hoax historian J. Van Pelt said as much ...
"Ninety-nine per cent of what we know we do not actually have the physical evidence to prove . . . it has become part of our inherited knowledge. I don't think that the Holocaust is an exceptional case in that sense. We in the future – remembering the Holocaust – will operate in the same way that we remember most things from the past. We will know about it from literature and eyewitness testimony. . ."

Van Pelt is right in that there is no physical evidence of the holocaust, but as for other historical events, like WW II for example, he may have overlooked a few things !
[qimg]http://www.holohoax101.org/201/battleship.jpg[/qimg]

For crying out loud, we even have physical evidence of weapons from the Peloponnesian wars ....
[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/hVHY86C.jpg[/qimg]

Van Pelt did not say there is no physical evidence. There is physical evidence. Much of it is what was left after the Nazis tried to destroy as much of the physical evidence as possible.

What is left as akin to a murder, where there are burnt human remains found buried, along with parts of a gun that has been smashed to pieces. Add that to dozens of witnesses who say they saw the shooting and the body being burnt and there is proof of murder.

Typical for a denier, you are fooling yourself over the supposed lack of evidence of gassings, which you stupidly ignore the total lack of evidence of the only possible alternative. It is physically impossible for the Nazis, starting at the end of 1941, to transport and accommodate ever increasing numbers of Jews, so that by the end of 1944, instead of being gassed, c2.5 million Jews were now being accommodated somewhere, without leaving any physical, witness, documentary or other evidence.

 

[Nessie]

One of the remarkable things about the holohoax is that the Jewish 'testimony' is egregiously and gratuitously preposterous.

It is notable, but hardly surprising, that the Jewish testimony is more histrionic than the matter of fact was Nazis gave their testimony.

That difference can be explained by
- victim vs accused status and PTSD
- it is maybe just how eastern European Jews are, compared to Germans
- survivor guilt felt by the victims and how they were often treated with suspicion and not believed, particularly the earlier reports
- the Nazis were under orders, many had to sign an oath of secrecy and as far as they were concerned, they were not actually doing anything wrong

The Jews revel in telling prima facie absurd lies and watching the goyim lap them up.

How do you assess their evidence? Do you differentiate between hearsay and eyewitness evidence? Do you understand about use of hyperbole, estimations, forgetfulness, time after the event, the circumstances under which the witness gives their evidence?

In my previous job as police officer, I was trained to take statements and took literally thousands of them. Have you ever taken a statement?

Of the many examples Elie Wiesel's 'Night' is the best .... from the book ... page 6 !

Babies were thrown in the air and the machine gunners used them as targets.

and later ...

Poor devils, you are heading for the crematorium.

He seemed to be telling the truth. Not far from us, flames, huge flames, were rising from a ditch. Something was being burned there. A truck drew close and unloaded its hold: small children. Babies! Yes, I did see this, with my own e y e s…children thrown into the flames. (Is it any wonder that ever since then, sleep tends to elude me?)

So that was where we were going. A little farther on, there was another, larger pit for adults.

“Father,” I said. “If that is true, then I don’t want to wait. I’ll run into the electrified barbed wire. That would be easier than a slow death in the flames

We continued our march. We were coming closer and closer tothe pit, from which an infernal heat was rising. Twenty more steps.

No. Two steps from the pit, we were ordered to turn left and herded into barracks.

I squeezed my father’s hand. He said: “Do you remember Mrs. Schächter, in the train?

For these preposterous lies Wiesel was awarded a Nobel prize and made the first director of the US Holohoax Memorial Museum.

We are teaching these prima facie preposterous lies as fact in our schools - my kid narrowly avoided it (by taking AP English) in the 10th grade.

There is not one prominent Jew in the entire world who will denounce this degenerate and criminal practice. If one would, we could stop it.

As for Hitler - I'm a big fan up till the Ribbentrop pact - where he made a deal with the devil and dealt western civ a hopefully not fatal blow. I'm just reading 'Hitler's Revolution', extraordinary book.

Wiesel is not a reliable eyewitness. His main issue is that he does not differentiate between what he saw and what he was told, and he thinks nothing of relating atrocity stories. Hence no academic uses him as a witness. Typical for a denier, you home in on people like him and suggest all of the witnesses are like that. They are not, particularly the Nazi witnesses.

You also do not think your claims through. You suggest all witness lied, in particular those who say they saw gassings (that list of c300 people I showed you). But what about the c2.5 million you say were not gassed? You are suggesting they all lied by omission, as in they were inside the AR camps and A-B Krema, saw what really happened and then kept quiet about it. No one ever came forward to say what did happen. Lying by omission.

That is an incredible claim, that every single witness agreed to lie and lied successfully and never once broke they were lying. Anyone with any experience of witnesses knows that is incredible and physically impossible.

 

[Saggy]

There is physical evidence. Much of it is what was left after the Nazis tried to destroy as much of the physical evidence as possible.

I note that you did not cite one credible witness to the gassings, Jewish or otherwise. Cite one, discuss their 'testimony', you can't do it.

Of course there are witnesses, the most famous is Filip Mueller, who describes a titillating scene involving "a few girls, naked and in the full bloom of youth" in a gas chamber, who make every effort to cheer up Meuller just before they are gassed, nothing is too absurd for the holohoax. See, when I say the testimony is absurd, I mean the absurdity is prima facie, self-evident. Like Wiesel's babies and machine gunners, or burning pits. Another of the most celebrated, along with Mueller and Wiesel, is A. Bomba, check out his absurd testimony here ... Bomba is currently featured on the USHMM website.
The Barber of Treblinka

Of course there are the remains of crematoria, but contrary to the hype, the hoax gas chambers were storage rooms in underground wings of the crematoria and these were not bombed, however their roofs collapsed when the furnace rooms were bombed. They can still be inspected, e.g.

Claiming that these storage rooms were gas chambers is just pure idiocy and there is not a shred of evidence for it.

But, what about the chutes for tossing the Zyklon into the hoax gas chamber?

It's now admitted by all, following the vid by D. Cole and the interview with the Auschwitz Museum director F. Piper, that they chutes were added after the war by the Soviets. Link to Cole's vid .... oops ... scrubbed from YouTube .... David Cole interviews F. Piper

But what about the cans of Zyklon-B, shown to visitors ...

Oh my ! But wait ...
The real gas chambers - from the book Auschwitz: 1270 to the Present by holocaust scholars D. Dwork and R. Jan Van Pelt:

A violent typhus epidemic erupted in the summer of 1942 and the whole lice infested camps - barracks, offices, and workshops - had to fumigated with tons of Zyklon-B ......Later that year Schacter developed primitive gas chambers in block 26 to fumigate prisoners clothing ..... Degesch engineers recommended the installation of many small heatable gas chambers to be used with tins of Zyklon-B Nineteen fumigation rooms were installed in the prisoner reception building to fumigate clothing, as shown in the drawing.

See how simple it really is?

 

[Belz...]

See how simple it really is?

Depends. Why do you believe the Typhus+Zyklon explanation? It doesn't explain the millions of dead, and you have yet to answer my points and questions.

- Where are the 6 million missing Jews and millions of other missing people who went into those camps and didn't get out?
- Do you understand the mistake that you made with the door you brought up earlier?
- Aside from "they're idiots", have you come up with any explanation as to why you are in the minority who think it's preposterous?
- How about the earlier persecution of Jews by the Nazis, including shootings, destruction of property, removal of rights, etc.?
- How about Nazis saying they would exterminate the Jews?
- Did you understand where you went wrong about the document about deaths in those camps?

 

[Nessie]

I note that you did not cite one credible witness to the gassings, Jewish or otherwise. Cite one, discuss their 'testimony', you can't do it.

I gave you a list of c300 witnesses, who have all been assessed as credible and used in trials and histories of what happened.

Of course there are witnesses.....

Explain how you credibly assess witness evidence. Explain your methodology. So far, all you have done is cherry pick how some witnesses said things that don't appear right and then asserted everything that witness said about gassings is a lie. That methodology would be laughed out of every court and every history tutorial.

 

[Nessie]

....
Of course there are the remains of crematoria, but contrary to the hype, the hoax gas chambers were storage rooms in underground wings of the crematoria and these were not bombed, however their roofs collapsed when the furnace rooms were bombed. They can still be inspected, e.g.
[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/Rk8GDm7.jpg[/qimg]
Claiming that these storage rooms were gas chambers is just pure idiocy and there is not a shred of evidence for it.

...

You are being dishonest again. The evidence is from the documents from the A-B construction department, recording the building of gas chambers in the Kremas and the witness evidence of the Topf & Sons engineers who wrote some of those documents. It is also from all of the witnesses who worked there. It is also from the circumstantial evidence of mass arrivals at the camp, selections, and those not selected to work being sent to the Kremas, where all their property was taken from them and there were mass cremations.

 

[TheSupermeerkat]

Once again Saggy fails to address any points raised or questions asked, and instead replies with semi coherent blocks of nazi copy pasta.

 

[Nessie]

Saggy, since the RODOH forum account is suspended, who do you post as there?

 

[Saggy]

You are being dishonest again. The evidence is from the documents from the A-B construction department, recording the building of gas chambers in the Kremas and the witness evidence of the Topf & Sons engineers who wrote some of those documents. It is also from all of the witnesses who worked there. It is also from the circumstantial evidence of mass arrivals at the camp, selections, and those not selected to work being sent to the Kremas, where all their property was taken from them and there were mass cremations.

There is a difference between referring to evidence as you have above, which may or may not exist, and producing the evidence (as I do, see above), so we can have a look.

Let me know when you can produce some evidence, like the evidence you've referred to above, or one credible witness, along with a discussion of their testimony.

Until then, you're jiving, and I'm out.

 

[Belz...]

"La la la la, I can't hear you!" isn't a very convincing argument, Saggy.

 

[Nessie]

There is a difference between referring to evidence as you have above, which may or may not exist, and producing the evidence (as I do, see above), so we can have a look.

Let me know when you can produce some evidence, like the evidence you've referred to above, or one credible witness, along with a discussion of their testimony.

Until then, you're jiving, and I'm out.

Documents relating to the construction of gas chambers at the A-B Kremas for a "special" action here;

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2012/10/index-of-published-evidence-on.html

Details about the Topf & Sons engineer who knew they building gas chambers here;

https://www.topfundsoehne.de/ts/en/exhibitions/permanent_exhibitions/the_engineers/128724.html

Their testimony here;

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=61650

For example, Kurt Pruefer giving evidence in 1946 -

"Question: Did you see gas chambers next to the crematoria [vozle krematoriev]?
Answer: Yes, I saw a gas chamber from the outside; there was a wooden barracks, and from this there was a link to the gas chamber; from the gas chamber there was a link to the crematorium [schol derevjanyj barak, ot nevo bylo soobschtschenie s gaskameroi, ot gaskamery bylo soobschtschenie s krematoriem].
Question: Did you know that in the gas chambers and crematoria an extermination of completely innocent people was carried out?
Answer: Since the spring of 1943 I knew that at Auschwitz concentration camp completely innocent people were destroyed and their corpses then burned in the crematorium.
Question: What did Schultze Karl tell you about the corpses that you saw lying at the crematorium?
Answer: At that time, in the spring of 1943 in the morning in the crematorium, Schultze told me regarding the corpses of up to sixty men, women and children lying there, that they had been murdered in gas chambers.
Question: What equipment for the gas chambers did the company Topf design?
Answer: The gas chamber was initially called «room for corpses», where a ventilation was installed by the company Topf, but later it became clear that this was a gas chamber for killing people.
Question: Who was the constructor of ventilation installations in the gas chambers?
Answer: The constructor of ventilation installations in the gas chambers was Schultze, he installed them.
Question: Please do truthfully explain, why in the chimneys of the crematoria in Auschwitz camp the inner brick lining (Schamottverkleidung) crumbled so often!
Answer: The inner brick lining of the crematory chimneys in Auschwitz already started crumbling after half a year due to the colossal strain to which these crematoria were subject at the concentration camp.
Question: This means that, although you knew already in the spring of 1943 that the crematorium ovens constructed by you were used for destroying innocent people, you nevertheless kept on working in the area?
Answer: Yes, that is correct. Although I knew that the crematorium ovens constructed and built by myself were meant for the extermination of innocent people in the concentration camps, I nevertheless kept on working in this field and still visited the camps [plural] at Auschwitz twice."

You are bailing out because your desired belief that there is little to no evidence of gassings is being challenged with corroborating, credible evidence.

 

[Hans]

Until then, you're jiving, and I'm out.

...and you have conceded - as you always do - that you are wrong.

Why do you come here; spewing hate and silly nonsense - and when answered you then get huffy and run away.

I mean you do this every single time?

LOL

 

[Hans]

You are bailing out because your desired belief that there is little to no evidence of gassings is being challenged with corroborating, credible evidence.

Thanks, Great material and answers

Are we surprised he bails every time...

 

[Nessie]

Thanks, Great material and answers

Are we surprised he bails every time...

It is all from others. I don't suppose you are the Hans who complied the list of documents and other from A-B?

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2012/10/index-of-published-evidence-on.html

I did similar, for what I can find online for TII;

https://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=32918

The claim made by many deniers about the supposed lack of physical evidence I have tried to tackle with details of the physical evidence, primarily archaeological reports here;

https://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=32919

I know there is more out there, which I have seen but now cannot find. One was for Sobibor, which included great aerial photos of the last excavations and a list of various archaeological reports. Another was for Chelmno, which went through each grave one by one. Both were on "museum" sites, and were in English, but I just cannot find them.

 

[TheSupermeerkat]

Saggy dishonours memory of the proud SS soldiers he so clearly adores by flouncing off like this.

You've made Hitler cry now, Saggy.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Of course but one of his most evil evil was his invasion of Luxembourg - I mean they had an army of 500 guys I think - no real threat. One could say yes they could have used it roads to attack the Allies then left the country but no....

Their history of resisting the Nazi was quite heroic. I use to live near Luxembourg and knew members of their military. Very interesting history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_occupation_of_Luxembourg_during_World_War_II

...and he had plans to attack Switzerland too

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tannenbaum

[IMGw=800]https://f4.bcbits.com/img/a3145897801_10.jpg[/IMGw]

All that and Hitler stated purpose to conquer lands in the East for Lebensraum

Jean Benoît Guillaume Robert Antoine Louis Marie Adolphe Marc d'Aviano (Heir to the Duchy) joined the British Army as a volunteer in the Irish Guards in November 1942.
After receiving officer training at the Royal Military College at Sandhurst, he was commissioned as a lieutenant and promoted to captain in 1944.
He landed in Normandy in June 1944, took part in the Battle for Caen and the liberation of Brussels
On 10 September 1944, he took part in the liberation of Luxembourg
After the war he served as Colonel of the Regiment of the Irish Guards until 1984.
He became Grand duke in 1964 and abdicated in 2000 in favour of his some Henri.

 

[Pacal]

Holocaust denial doesn't bother me as much as it's criminalization by some countries does.

My largest question about the accuracy of holocaust data, would be in the total numbers. Maybe it is just because it is hard to comprehend the logistics involved with even the 1.1 million estimated deaths at Auschwitz, alone. I am not disputing the numbers given, I just find them so staggering.

One of the most studied Genocides ever is the Rwanda Genocide of 1994. In c. 100 days between 500,000 and 800,000 people were slaughtered. All of this verified by eye witness reports, and the countless mass graves etc., all over the country. In fact in places it was decided to leave has memorials the churches in which people had taken refugee and were then slaughtered inside. So in Rwanda today you can find decaying churches packed with the bodies of men, women and children. And all of this was accomplished mostly with machetes and spears, although there were mass shootings.

If Rwanda, a poor African state, can in c. 100 days murder 500-800 thousand people mostly with machetes and spears I have little doubt that the Nazis with the resources of the German state could murder 6 million+ human beings in a few years.

I actually think that Holocaust Denial should not be criminalized and regard such laws has stupid. First because the state should not legislate historical truth. Secondly because it enables Deniers to pose has martyrs for free speech and thus get a propaganda victory. I should point out that despite these laws it is easy in countries with these laws to get Denial crap because the laws are not very often used and so Deniers continue to shill their lying bilge in country after country. (Germany and Austria for two examples.)

So far such laws have not had a huge impact. As for the Holocaust Deniers being a threat? Well they are almost always anti-Semitic loons burning with a pathological hatred of the mythological, all powerful satanic "Jew". When they talk to each other the paper thin mask of "just asking questions" comes off and the bile and hate pour out. I sincerely hope people with such beliefs NEVER come to power. I have little doubt it would be unpleasant for many people. And of course the relationship of Holocaust Denial and Neo-Nazism is undeniable. So yes I consider these idiots a potential danger.

Rather amusingly two well known Deniers Irving and later Faurisson sued people who described them has racists, etc., for libel. Thus trying to curtail and limit their freedom of speech. They both lost. In both cases the Courts ruled that the descriptions were simply accurate.

Yes they should have the freedom to spread their lying bilge and I have the freedom to label them racist pieces of crap.

 

[Nessie]

....

I actually think that Holocaust Denial should not be criminalized and regard such laws has stupid. First because the state should not legislate historical truth. Secondly because it enables Deniers to pose has martyrs for free speech and thus get a propaganda victory. ....

That is certainly the case on the RODOH denier forum where I post. They love their martyr status and since most denial laws have been due to pressure from Jewish groups, it also appeals to their conspiracy beliefs that the Jews run the world.