• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Bigfoot in Malaysia

Where? The P/G film?...

The PG film is the best photographic evidence currently available, and it has yet to be proven a hoax. Further, the more skeptics try to establish it as a hoax and fail, the stronger the validity of the film becomes.

And there is much other evidence:

*Footprints, some with dermal signature
*Hair and feces evidence
*Witness testimony
*Aboriginal cultural testimony

The compilation of the above composes enough evidence for further, deeper investigation.

...Erik Beckjord had better proof than that...

And that is?.........................
 
Last edited:
Ah, the old common argument that "gorillas were not found"... Invalid argument, I´m afraid. A variation on the rants about mainstream science.

480 BC there was nothing that called science as we know it noways. The number of experts has increased a lot as well as the avaliable technology, methodology and knoweledge database. Not only in raw numbers, but also in terms of quality.....

Invalid according to you?

I'm impressed. That's real scientific.

Combine the long, long refusal to accept the human testimony, the refusal to accept the proof in the form of a carcass by so many like yourself, and the industrial behavior of science since the discovery of the gorilla, and we are left with a mirror image of what is happening now and what will happen after the discovery of sasquatches.

Science completely failed in the discovery of the gorilla; plain and simple. And there is absolutely no indication that prominent scientists of that day (DuChaillu emerged from Gaboon with his gorilla carcass two years after the publication of "Origins of Species") would have changed the situation anytime soon.

A hunter provided the proof that many in science (primarily here in the U.S.) denied, and even continued to deny after the carcass was delivered.

They, quite literally, had to have their noses rubbed in the carcass.
 
WilliamParcher:
The skepticism of Bigfoot offers an inherent falsifiability. Produce a Bigfoot creature (or unrefutable evidence of such) and the negative hypothesis of Bigfoot is instantly refuted.

The belief of Bigfoot offers no inherent falsifiability. There is nothing that anyone can do or say to show that Bigfoot does not exist.... no matter how obvious it would seem to anyone. If only one person on earth claimed that they recently saw a giant wild ape in a Washington forest, nobody could really prove that they didn't really see such an animal.

Just worth repeating IMO.. Sort of lost in the clutter..
 
Last edited:
They, quite literally, had to have their noses rubbed in the carcass.

...still waiting to have their noses rubbed in dragon carcasses, or unicorn carcasses, or mermaid carcasses...



... or bigfoot carcasses.
 
And that is the precise problem. There are too many people thinking that same thing.

Analyzing evidence from a skeptical point of view is clearly proper.

Analyzing evidence from a prejudiced point of view, with the goal of denial rather than seeking the truth, is quite different.

Not analyzing the evidence at all, and parroting the opinions of others who are denying the validity of evidence purely to bolster the position they prematurely took at first, is classic human folly. This phenomenon has occurred in the past, is occurring today, and will continue.



Irrefutable evidence (also known as proof) is not currently available.

Compelling evidence is.



When someone provides proof you'll change your mind. You'll have no choice then, unless your human pride is so great as to deny the obvious.

The rest of science will join you at that time.

So who needs them now?

You are putting words in my mouth I've never said. I have never said BF doesn't exist, just that according to what I've read and watched, it doesn't seem likely. According to MY standards, bigfoot evidence isn't even the slightest bit compelling and certainly not any level of proof. The onus is to prove BF is real, not to disprove it. People take other peoples theories apart all the time to look for holes. Apparently thats not the way BF research is done from all I've read. Please don't assume what my human pride will do because you have no idea. I've said it before and I'll say it again. When someone provides even the least compelling evidence I will pay attention. Until then it's all theories and hypotheses.

PS why do you detest scientists so much? Because they won't agree with you?

PPS gorillas do exist I've seen one and I'm a skeptic.
 
Just worth repeating IMO.. Sort of lost in the clutter..

It seems to be much worse than even this. Much worse. It is obvious that Bigfoot is unfalsifiable. But the situation for a curious and evaluative skeptic is severly handicapped. Bigfootery creates this handicap. Skeptics do not have access to primary evidence and information that has not already been presented by Bigfootery. Skeptics are forced to evaluate things that are presented to them by Bigfooters. This allows Bigfoot advocates to modify, translate, disseminate, delete and generally alter the nature of primary evidence before the skeptic ever gets a chance to make an honest inquiry.

The glorious example is the PGF. We are all told that the original film is missing. We know that copies were made of this film even before the existence of video (these are referred to as 1st, 2nd generation, etc.). Yet we are also being deprived of seeing these early-generational copies, in spite of knowing that they exist and even having a good idea of who possesses this evidence. Bigfooters loudly proclaim that the Legend Meets Science (LMS) DVD is a buyable "documentary" that shows the best evaluatable footage from the PGF. But it is quite clear that the LMS was produced from a decent early-generation bit of film evidence. The LMS producers are only allowing the world to see what they want them to see, in spite of the tacit suggestion that you are seeing everything that you can possibly see. They are not showing us the raw primary evidence... they are showing us what they decided to show us. Is it any accident that Bigfoot and PGF skepticism is forced to operate with "one-hand-tied-behind-its-back"?

The LMS pretends to be an objective presentation of Bigfoot evidence. It is really a highly-controlled production created by Bigfoot advocates in an effort to hoodwink the world into thinking that this mythical animal is really justified. The LMS is a mockery of scientific inquiry and a bold affront to rationality, reason and skepticism.

Shame on the LMS producers. Shame on Bigfootery. This is what happens when able people try to advocate and perpetuate an American myth as fact. Shame shame shame!
 
The onus is to prove BF is real, not to disprove it.

The Bigfooter community is absolutely desperate (and succeeds within its own ranks) to reverse this burden of proof. Their minions and websites constantly are proclaiming and hinging their status on the inability of skepticism or any given skeptic to prove that Bigfoot does not exist or that the PGF is a hoax. Bigfootery is a disgusting offense to human rationality and reason. Lu and Huntster are the token defenders og Bigfoot here on JREF. They will fight to argue that this creature is not only reasonable, but that it is actual. There seems to be almost no limits to the abstract and desperate position that they argue from. Never forget that there has been no confirmation whatsoever that Bigfoot is a real creature. They are going to try to convince you that this is unimportant.
 
The Bigfooter community is absolutely desperate (and succeeds within its own ranks) to reverse this burden of proof. Their minions and websites constantly are proclaiming and hinging their status on the inability of skepticism or any given skeptic to prove that Bigfoot does not exist or that the PGF is a hoax. Bigfootery is a disgusting offense to human rationality and reason. Lu and Huntster are the token defenders og Bigfoot here on JREF. They will fight to argue that this creature is not only reasonable, but that it is actual. There seems to be almost no limits to the abstract and desperate position that they argue from. Never forget that there has been no confirmation whatsoever that Bigfoot is a real creature. They are going to try to convince you that this is unimportant.
Been a longtime lurker in the BF field and I realize that some people do this. The "prove a hoax" mantra is boring and totally predictable. The gorilla story is also totally predictable and I am doing my best to ignore it.

Anyways like I keep saying, only a carcass, a piece of flesh or a credible video will shut up the skeptics and make the science type people take notice. I hope it's real too but I'm not going to declare it real unless someone finds one and either shoots it with a camera or a high-powered rifle. Heck you don't even have to kill it, just take out a chunk of flesh. I know if I ever saw one in my sights I wouldn't hesitate for a second. Check that..I would wait because it may be someone filming a new Patty scene..lol..;)
 
It seems to be much worse than even this. Much worse. It is obvious that Bigfoot is unfalsifiable. But the situation for a curious and evaluative skeptic is severly handicapped. Bigfootery creates this handicap. Skeptics do not have access to primary evidence and information that has not already been presented by Bigfootery. Skeptics are forced to evaluate things that are presented to them by Bigfooters. This allows Bigfoot advocates to modify, translate, disseminate, delete and generally alter the nature of primary evidence before the skeptic ever gets a chance to make an honest inquiry.

The glorious example is the PGF. We are all told that the original film is missing. We know that copies were made of this film even before the existence of video (these are referred to as 1st, 2nd generation, etc.). Yet we are also being deprived of seeing these early-generational copies, in spite of knowing that they exist and even having a good idea of who possesses this evidence. Bigfooters loudly proclaim that the Legend Meets Science (LMS) DVD is a buyable "documentary" that shows the best evaluatable footage from the PGF. But it is quite clear that the LMS was produced from a decent early-generation bit of film evidence. The LMS producers are only allowing the world to see what they want them to see, in spite of the tacit suggestion that you are seeing everything that you can possibly see. They are not showing us the raw primary evidence... they are showing us what they decided to show us. Is it any accident that Bigfoot and PGF skepticism is forced to operate with "one-hand-tied-behind-its-back"?

The LMS pretends to be an objective presentation of Bigfoot evidence. It is really a highly-controlled production created by Bigfoot advocates in an effort to hoodwink the world into thinking that this mythical animal is really justified. The LMS is a mockery of scientific inquiry and a bold affront to rationality, reason and skepticism.

Shame on the LMS producers. Shame on Bigfootery. This is what happens when able people try to advocate and perpetuate an American myth as fact. Shame shame shame!

To me, it's unfathomable that any "documentary" on bigfoot basing any portion of it's evidence on the P/G film would not make every effort to present the most complete, earliest generation, unretouched version of the film possible. But for some reason the bigfoot enthusiasts don't want anyone to look at the whole thing and see it for what it is. Much better to see doctored, blown up frames with "enhanced" details highlighted to support their claims. Why?

...I have my own theory. You make up your own mind.
 
To me, it's unfathomable that any "documentary" on bigfoot basing any portion of it's evidence on the P/G film would not make every effort to present the most complete, earliest generation, unretouched version of the film possible. But for some reason the bigfoot enthusiasts don't want anyone to look at the whole thing and see it for what it is. Much better to see doctored, blown up frames with "enhanced" details highlighted to support their claims. Why?

...I have my own theory. You make up your own mind.

Why? Because Bigfootery is a conspiracy against rationality, reason and the innocently curious human who is interested in the world that they were born into. :D
 
Last edited:
Woo!

The P/G film is not evidence of bigfoot unless it is actually bigfoot in the film....

This has not been established by anyone yet.

The dermal ridges are well in dispute.

The hair has come to naught as has the feces.

Jeff Meldrum still insists that a bear print belongs to bigfoot.....
 
...PS why do you detest scientists so much? Because they won't agree with you?....

I don't detest scientists. I'm disgusted with the industry and ideology, especially regarding this phenomenon.

...PPS gorillas do exist I've seen one and I'm a skeptic...

Did gorillas exist in 1835, before you and western scientists saw one?
 
It seems to be much worse than even this. Much worse. It is obvious that Bigfoot is unfalsifiable. But the situation for a curious and evaluative skeptic is severly handicapped. Bigfootery creates this handicap. Skeptics do not have access to primary evidence and information that has not already been presented by Bigfootery. Skeptics are forced to evaluate things that are presented to them by Bigfooters. This allows Bigfoot advocates to modify, translate, disseminate, delete and generally alter the nature of primary evidence before the skeptic ever gets a chance to make an honest inquiry....

And how is this different than, say, evolutionary archeology, or nuclear physics?
 
The P/G film is not evidence of bigfoot unless it is actually bigfoot in the film.....

The subject in the film looks like what people have been calling sasquatches, the people who shot the footage said that it was not a hoax, many scientists and photography experts have analyzed the film (some say they believe it is a real creature, some say they don't know, and a few think it's a hoax, but can't prove it). There were also very good footprints at the site, these were photographed and casted by independent researchers and a timber industry employee who learned of the event.

This is all evidence that skeptics can't prove were hoaxed, despite trying very, very hard.

It is reasonable to judge that the subject in the film is a sasquatch.

...The dermal ridges are well in dispute...

By whom, and what is his/her/their evidence?

...The hair has come to naught as has the feces...

Some hair and fecal analysis has been ruled "inconclusive", because they matched no known species. That is not the same as "coming to naught".

...Jeff Meldrum still insists that a bear print belongs to bigfoot....

Which print do you refer to? Can you show us so that we, too, can intelligently rule on it as you have?

Indeed, I have much experience with bear prints. I'd love to see the evidence you have seen.

Please share it with us.
 
I don't detest scientists. I'm disgusted with the industry and ideology, especially regarding this phenomenon.
Then you are guilty of pre-judging also. That doesn't help your BF cause.
Did gorillas exist in 1835, before you and western scientists saw one?
Extremely stupid question unworthy of a serious reply.

I'm done I suppose if the level of discourse turns this low.

Edit: I see it again that you're asking for evidence of a hoax. Here's a free clue: There is none.
Now that's out of the way, please provide evidence it isn't a hoax. Saying something is real doesn't make it so.

See ya and say hello to BF for me.
 
Last edited:
Hunster, as much as I'd love for bigfoot to exist, in the 30+ years I've been following this mystery, I have yet to hear of any irrefutable evidence that proves it exists.

The subject in the film looks like what people have been calling sasquatches...

Which doesn't make it real.

...the people who shot the footage said that it was not a hoax

They may have been fooled, mistaken, or lying.

...many scientists and photography experts have analyzed the film (some say they believe it is a real creature [but can't prove it], some say they don't know, and a few think it's a hoax, but can't prove it).

Many times what people think or believe has little bearing on the truth.

There were also very good footprints at the site, these were photographed and casted by independent researchers and a timber industry employee who learned of the event.

Which doesn't eliminate the possibility of hoaxing.

This is all evidence that skeptics can't prove were hoaxed, despite trying very, very hard.

One can also argue that bigfoot proponents can't prove the evidence wasn't hoaxed, despite trying very, very hard.

It is reasonable to judge that the subject in the film is a sasquatch.

Why? Should UFO films also be judged valid because they can't be proven to be hoaxes? How about crop circles?

By whom, and what is his/her/their evidence?

Tube has already pointed out some problems with dermal ridges elsewhere on this board, as well as over on the BFF if I'm not mistaken.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43206&highlight=dermal+ridge

Some hair and fecal analysis has been ruled "inconclusive", because they matched no known species. That is not the same as "coming to naught".

Most of the hair has been ruled 'inconclusive' because it can't be distinguished from human hair. This discussion has been conducted here at JREF as well as the BFF.

Here's a few quick links regarding hair analysis:
http://www.internationalskeptics.co...hp?p=1130956&highlight=fahrenbach#post1130956
http://www.internationalskeptics.co...hp?p=1130433&highlight=fahrenbach#post1130433
http://www.internationalskeptics.co...hp?p=1108668&highlight=fahrenbach#post1108668
http://www.internationalskeptics.co...hp?p=1107372&highlight=fahrenbach#post1107372
http://www.internationalskeptics.co...hp?p=1106040&highlight=fahrenbach#post1106040

This link has a quote regarding the hair found in the Skookum cast as well:
http://www.internationalskeptics.co...hp?p=1107947&highlight=fahrenbach#post1107947

Which print do you refer to? Can you show us so that we, too, can intelligently rule on it as you have?

Again, this was information presented here on the JREF in another thread. I'm not sure who originated the particular post in question, so I'm not even sure how to find it.

Indeed, I have much experience with bear prints. I'd love to see the evidence you have seen.

Suffice to say it was presented by Dr. Meldrum himself in the form of photographs which he claimed were of squatch prints. If you were to view them, I suspect even you would conclude they resemble bear prints far more than anything attributed to bigfoot.

Please share it with us.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1275467#post1275467
Originally from:
http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/articles/pdf/18.1_meldrum.pdf
and
http://www.isu.edu/~meldd/jpg/004.jpg

I have found over the years my skepticism steadily increasing with regards to bigfoot. Much of the debate about the available evidence seems to mirror the 'dragon in the garage' story Carl Sagan writes about in The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark (I have modified his text to reflect bigfoot instead):

"A sasquatch lives in my garage"

Suppose (I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin) I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of sasquatches over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle -- but no sasquatch.

"Where's the sasquatch?" you ask.

"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible sasquatch."

You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the sasquatch footprints.

"Good idea," I say, "but this sasquatch floats in the air."

Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible sasquatch.

"Good idea, but the invisible sasquatch is also heatless."

You'll spray-paint the sasquatch and make her visible.

"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal sasquatch and the paint won't stick." And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating, heatless sasquatch and no sasquatch at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my sasquatch exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so. The only thing you've really learned from my insistence that there's a sasquatch in my garage is that something funny is going on inside my head. You'd wonder, if no physical tests apply, what convinced me. The possibility that it was a dream or a hallucination would certainly enter your mind. But then, why am I taking it so seriously? Maybe I need help. At the least, maybe I've seriously underestimated human fallibility. Imagine that, despite none of the tests being successful, you wish to be scrupulously open-minded. So you don't outright reject the notion that there's a sasquatch in my garage. You merely put it on hold. Present evidence is strongly against it, but if a new body of data emerge you're prepared to examine it and see if it convinces you. Surely it's unfair of me to be offended at not being believed; or to criticize you for being stodgy and unimaginative -- merely because you rendered the Scottish verdict of "not proved."

Imagine that things had gone otherwise. The sasquatch is invisible, all right, but footprints are being made in the flour as you watch. Your infrared detector reads off-scale. The spray paint reveals a sagittal crest bobbing in the air before you. No matter how skeptical you might have been about the existence of sasquatches -- to say nothing about invisible ones -- you must now acknowledge that there's something here, and that in a preliminary way it's consistent with an invisible sasquatch.

Now another scenario: Suppose it's not just me. Suppose that several people of your acquaintance, including people who you're pretty sure don't know each other, all tell you that they have sasquatches in their garages -- but in every case the evidence is maddeningly elusive. All of us admit we're disturbed at being gripped by so odd a conviction so ill-supported by the physical evidence. None of us is a lunatic. We speculate about what it would mean if invisible sasquatches were really hiding out in garages all over the world, with us humans just catching on. I'd rather it not be true, I tell you. But maybe all those ancient Indian myths about sasquatches weren't myths at all.

Gratifyingly, some sasquatch-size footprints in the flour are now reported. But they're never made when a skeptic is looking. An alternative explanation presents itself. On close examination it seems clear that the footprints could have been faked. Another sasquatch enthusiast shows up with an inconclusive hair sample and attributes it to a rare physical manifestation of the sasquatch. But again, other possibilities exist. We understand that there are other sources of inconclusive hair samples besides a sasquatch. Such "evidence" -- no matter how important the sasquatch advocates consider it -- is far from compelling. Once again, the only sensible approach is tentatively to reject the sasquatch hypothesis, to be open to future physical data, and to wonder what the cause might be that so many apparently sane and sober people share the same strange delusion.


RayG
 
Then you are guilty of pre-judging also. That doesn't help your BF cause.....

No pre-judging at all. I'm judging what I have been seeing and hearing for many years now.

]...Did gorillas exist in 1835, before you and western scientists saw one?
Extremely stupid question unworthy of a serious reply...

Is it?

Gorillas exist. They existed long before Hanno's reference in 480 BC, they existed in 1840, they existed in 1847 when the Reverend Thomas Savage (a Chistian missionary) delivered gorilla skulls to scientists, they existed in 1861 when DuChaillu delivered a carcass to science, they existed in 1870 when Americans were joking about DuChaillu's vivid imagination, and they still exist today.

Whether you see them or not, whether science sees them or not, and whether you or I like it or not.

I submit that other creatures may exist out there that science (always the last to know) doesn't accept.

...I see it again that you're asking for proof of a hoax. Here's a free clue: There is none....

Wrong again, scientist.

There are lots of sasquatch photos out there that have been proven to be a hoax.

There has been eyewitness testimony and footprints found in Malaysia.

Do you have any evidence that this Malaysian event is hoaxed or in error?

Got anything?
 
Last edited:
Do you have any evidence that this Malaysian event is hoaxed or in error?

Got anything?

There's nothing to indicate an outright hoax, but there sure is a lot of questionable wordage contained in the report.

They alerted their employer who photographed what appeared to be footprints measuring up to 17 inches, said Lim Teong Kheng, the chairman of the Malaysian Nature Society in Johor.

He said brown hair reeking of body odor was also reportedly retrieved nearby, and a broken tree branch at the site appeared to indicate the creatures were some 10 feet tall.

The New Straits Times newspaper on Thursday reprinted one of the photographs taken by the fish farmer, showing what appears to be a triangular depression in the undergrowth.

I don't see how anything in this report provides conclusive evidence for the existence of bigfoot in Malaysia.

RayG
 
Ray, thanks for the links. Those are among the first links I've been offered on this forum.

I have to agree with many of the points you've made, but I must comment on this one:

It is reasonable to judge that the subject in the film is a sasquatch.

Why? Should UFO films also be judged valid because they can't be proven to be hoaxes?

When confronted with a UFO report that is seen by multiple witnesses, including combat pilots sent to intercept it after it was detected on radar, and teh eyewitness reports indicate activity that cannot be matched by currently known aircraft (again, corroborated by radar), one must consider the possibility that there was, indeed, an unidentified flying object there.

Whether or not it was a "flying saucer" is a whole other question, isn't it?

The sasquatch phenomenon is very similar. We don't know what it is. But the evidence that a bipedal ape exists in North America is strong enough for the science industry and community to look into it instead of working so hard to kill it.

And, like I've pointed out, this situation has played out before wit regard to the discovery of the gorilla, and it is being played out with remarkable similarities.

I'll be checking those links now.........................
 
....Which print do you refer to? Can you show us so that we, too, can intelligently rule on it as you have?

Again, this was information presented here on the JREF in another thread. I'm not sure who originated the particular post in question, so I'm not even sure how to find it.


Indeed, I have much experience with bear prints. I'd love to see the evidence you have seen.


Suffice to say it was presented by Dr. Meldrum himself in the form of photographs which he claimed were of squatch prints. If you were to view them, I suspect even you would conclude they resemble bear prints far more than anything attributed to bigfoot.

You are correct. I looked at the photo of the print, also saw it in Meldrum's paper, and it certainly looks like a bear print. However, it is also a single print and without associated sign that might be found nearby which could give more of the story.

But we also have this, posted by tube:

Doe anyone, other than Lu, think the track is anything but that of a bear?

I do. I had the same perception that some of you folks do until I saw the cast that was made from this track. This is a good reason for caution in making interpretations from photos alone.
These tracks were not made by a bear......

tube has posted in a very balanced way here, describes himself as agnostic, and has been performing his own experiments on fake footprints. If he has held a cast of that footprint in his hand, and says it's not a bear, how can I or LTC8KC credibly debate otherwise?

This is one of my major points; prejudiced opinion isn't even rational, let alone science.
 

Back
Top Bottom