Cont: Rioters storm and occupy the US Capitol - part 2

[GodMark2]

Antifa can't knock over a trashcan without getting a volley of rubber bullets and tear gas grenades shot at their heads but these CHUDs can beat a few cops half to death and still get the kid glove treatment.

...and then complain that the gloves were only soft cotton, and not plush velvet.

 

[Mumbles]

They'll eventually collapse one way or the other. They are declared a terrorist organization by Canada and perhaps will here too (and even if they don't, the FBI has watching them closely) They are easily infiltrated and surveilled. There is rampant infighting and turncoats. I'm no fan of antifa but at least they have operational security and other skills these clowns will never have.

Agreed - the Oath Keepers, as I recall, already have a bunch of spinoffs that are highly questionable, but didn't think a direct attack on Congress was a smart idea (which, I mean...). I'm mostly interested in whether or not the Proud Boys will end up as a2+ street gangs that mostly war with one anothe, like the Bloods and Crips, or if they just kinda fade off with people hiding their ugly shirts and stupid tattoos.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

They'll eventually collapse one way or the other. They are declared a terrorist organization by Canada and perhaps will here too (and even if they don't, the FBI has watching them closely) They are easily infiltrated and surveilled. There is rampant infighting and turncoats. I'm no fan of antifa but at least they have operational security and other skills these clowns will never have.

The US can't legally declare domestic groups terrorist orgs the way they can with foreign groups.

The feds might dedicate more resources to subverting and policing these groups, but there's no option to outright criminalize membership and/or support of domestic extremism groups.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I don't understand why there weren't more shots fired. Attack and cop with a baton or flagpole and you should expect to get shot. In the new video that came out yesterday showing a guy with a metal rod attacking police, it looked like a scenario I remember on the simulator where you were supposed to shoot the person.

They don't shoot white people.

Actually they were trying not to escalate the scene into a blood bath. I think had they had a better position from which to shoot they should have considered it. But shooting at a mob that is on top of you may be quite risky.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The US can't legally declare domestic groups terrorist orgs the way they can with foreign groups.

The feds might dedicate more resources to subverting and policing these groups, but there's no option to outright criminalize membership and/or support of domestic extremism groups.

What?

Terrorist organizations in the US.

Ku Klux Klan
The Ku Klux Klan (KKK) was determined to be a "terrorist organization" in 1870 by a federal grand jury,[39] and the FBI has been investigating crimes by white supremacy extremists including Klan members since the early 1900s.[40] During reconstruction at the end of the Civil War the original KKK used domestic terrorism against the federal government and against freed slaves. During the 20th century, leading up to the Civil Rights Movement, unrelated KKK groups used threats, violence, arson, and murder to further their anti-Black, anti-Catholic, anti-Communist, anti-immigrant, anti-Semitic, homophobic and white-supremacist agenda. Other groups with agendas similar to the Ku Klux Klan include neo-Nazis, white power skinheads, and other far-right movements.

I doubt there are many groups domestic or foreign that one is arrested solely for being a member.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

"Eye Gouger", the guy seen viciously attacking the cops with a pipe and clawing at their faces with his bare hands, revealed to be retired NYPD.

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/investigations/retired-nypd-cop-once-assigned-to-secure-city-hall-charged-in-pipe-attack-on-capitol-police-officials/2904889/?_osource=db_npd_nbc_wnbc_twt_shr

How fitting that one of the most iconically vicious attackers widely seen on the news of the event is a former cop.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

What?

Terrorist organizations in the US.I doubt there are many groups domestic or foreign that one is arrested solely for being a member.

Right, and it's still perfectly legal to be a member of the KKK, for example, and send them money. Meanwhile sending material support to ISIS is something you can be imprisoned for. Individuals in the US cannot be charged simply for being members of domestic terrorism groups, they must be charged for normal crimes they commit as part of that group.

Classifying these groups as domestic terrorists is a useful organizational tool, but doesn't really carry much weight legally speaking.

While international terrorism ("acts of terrorism transcending national boundaries") is a defined crime in federal law,[5] no federal criminal offense exists which is referred to as "domestic terrorism".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_terrorism

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Right, and it's still perfectly legal to be a member of the KKK, for example, and send them money. Meanwhile sending material support to ISIS is something you can be imprisoned for. Individuals in the US cannot be charged simply for being members of domestic terrorism groups, they must be charged for normal crimes they commit as part of that group.

Classifying these groups as domestic terrorists is a useful organizational tool, but doesn't really carry much weight legally speaking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_terrorism

Wouldn't sending money to an organization that is at war with US troops in the Middle East be different from just being declared a terrorist group?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Wouldn't sending money to an organization that is at war with US troops in the Middle East be different from just being declared a terrorist group?

It is a federal crime to support international terror. It is not a federal crime to support or join a domestic terror group, that's all I'm saying.

The feds declaring the Proud Boys a Domestic Terror group would not result in them folding up overnight like it did in Canada. It might make membership more stigmatized and harder for members to justify, but it would remain legal to be a Proud Boy. If Proud Boys ceases to exist, it'll be because all the members either quit, die, or get arrested for specific crimes. Odds are good most will end up in other groups or reorganize as new groups. It's common that the same people end up in a whack-a-mole situation as they jump from failed group to failed group.

I wonder if a case could be made that these groups are international terror groups. Gavin McInnis is a Canadian national living here on a greencard when he started the group, and there have been non-US chapters. Not sure what's involved in making that determination.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Feds digging deep into the bag of tricks to nail a CHUD who carried a pistol with him:

A grand jury has invoked a rarely used federal statute to indict a Capitol defendant who repeatedly admitted transporting a weapon across state lines ahead of the Jan. 6 insurrection at the U.S. Capitol.

The D.C. federal grand jury, in a superseding indictment returned Wednesday and unsealed Thursday, charged Guy Reffitt of Texas with transporting “a rifle and a semi-automatic handgun, knowing and having reason to know and intending that the firearm will be used unlawfully in furtherance of a civil disorder.”

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/guy-reffitt-capitol-riot-gun-charge_n_60cb57f5e4b0b0e834230ff7?ew9

Mock seems to be somewhat unusual because he has a prior record of violent crimes. Couldn't be happening to a nicer guy

Brian Mock, who allegedly bragged he “beat the **** out of officers,” also threatened the woman who went with him to the Capitol and said he’d “make her life hell” if she identified him, feds said in a filing today.

..

Feds also say Brian Mock previously held a gun to kids’ heads and aggressively shouted at them and shove a bystander who tried to help.

https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly/status/1405950268873846793

 

[MRC_Hans]

"Eye Gouger", the guy seen viciously attacking the cops with a pipe and clawing at their faces with his bare hands, revealed to be retired NYPD.

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/investigations/retired-nypd-cop-once-assigned-to-secure-city-hall-charged-in-pipe-attack-on-capitol-police-officials/2904889/?_osource=db_npd_nbc_wnbc_twt_shr

How fitting that one of the most iconically vicious attackers widely seen on the news of the event is a former cop.

Well, we have seen that there are cops who are violent, racist, etc. So no big surprise there. Basically, I suppose cops are, and should be, representative of the population. They should, however, abide by the laws.

Hans

 

[Thermal]

It is a federal crime to support international terror. It is not a federal crime to support or join a domestic terror group, that's all I'm saying.

The feds declaring the Proud Boys a Domestic Terror group would not result in them folding up overnight like it did in Canada. It might make membership more stigmatized and harder for members to justify, but it would remain legal to be a Proud Boy. If Proud Boys ceases to exist, it'll be because all the members either quit, die, or get arrested for specific crimes. Odds are good most will end up in other groups or reorganize as new groups. It's common that the same people end up in a whack-a-mole situation as they jump from failed group to failed group.

I wonder if a case could be made that these groups are international terror groups. Gavin McInnis is a Canadian national living here on a greencard when he started the group, and there have been non-US chapters. Not sure what's involved in making that determination.

Or we could just, you know, do it, and work out the constitutionality later

-Henry Kissinger

 

[Trebuchet]

"Eye Gouger", the guy seen viciously attacking the cops with a pipe and clawing at their faces with his bare hands, revealed to be retired NYPD.

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/investigations/retired-nypd-cop-once-assigned-to-secure-city-hall-charged-in-pipe-attack-on-capitol-police-officials/2904889/?_osource=db_npd_nbc_wnbc_twt_shr

How fitting that one of the most iconically vicious attackers widely seen on the news of the event is a former cop.

CNN talking heads this morning were shocked -- shocked, I tell you! -- that current and former police and military were involved in the insurrection. Where were they last summer when cops repeatedly employed violence against peaceful protesters?

 

[Craig4]

With the weapons charge, he should get enough time that he dies in prison. It's good when his kind suffer.

 

[smartcooky]

Reply to post in the MTG Thread

I understand that members and Capitol Police observed the Gosar boy giving tours to people on the the 5th. Those same people were part of the enemy force that attacked the capitol the following day.

Well if that is the case, then there is a good chance that at least some of them are among the 521 people so far arrested, and if so, then they are holding a very valuable chip in the game.

We actually know for sure that the prosecutors have asked at least one of the charged insurrectionists, Thomas Webster (a former NYC cop) about the involvement of Congress members and/or staff. We know because NBC reporter Scott MacFarlane has got a hold of the court transcript.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McJ5tY87KoY
(5 minutes)

If they've asked one, they almost certainly have asked a lot more.... and that might bring the "PERSON ONE, PERSON TWO" thing in the Oath Keeper's charging documents into sharper focus.

 

[newyorkguy]

"Eye Gouger", the guy seen viciously attacking the cops with a pipe and clawing at their faces with his bare hands, revealed to be retired NYPD...

Not really out of character for some cops when they blow their stack. And Webster was clearly in a rage. [see screencaps below]

An NYPD veteran [Thomas Webster] charged with beating a police officer during the Capitol riot is shocked that he’s locked up with “inner-city” criminals, according to his lawyer...“For a middle aged guy whose never been arrested before, this has been a shock for him,” the attorney reportedly explained...Webster has been jailed since February on charges that include assault of a police officer. Federal prosecutors said he attacked a cop with a metal flagpole during the insurrection and can be seen in a photo submitted with his indictment apparently digging his thumbs into the officer’s face...his lawyer argued that he was a “committed family man” with an impeccable character. He was simply answering a call from then-President Donald Trump, his attorney insisted, according to Law & Crime. HuffPost news link

A relative and a close friend are/were NYPD officers. They both always warned me -- and they don't know one another -- to be careful in any interaction with police. They both say the same thing, roughly half the officers they worked with should never have been appointed. I guess Webster, seen in red jacket below, is in that group.

 

[Bob001]

.....
A relative and a close friend are/were NYPD officers. They both always warned me -- and they don't know one another -- to be careful in any interaction with police. They both say the same thing, roughly half the officers they worked with should never have been appointed. I guess Webster, seen in red jacket below, is in that group.

Did they say anything about the criteria that allowed them to be hired? What aren't the managers doing that they should be doing?

 

[smartcooky]

Just to add to my earlier post #355

Was watching interviews with former FBI Special Agent, and Assistant Director for Counter-intelligence Frank Figliuzzi, and former Assistant U.S. Attorney for DC, Glenn Kirschner.

They both pointed out that the FBI generally don't ask these kinds of questions unless they already know the answers to them, and since they already have 520 other people arrested, have seized their devices and have access to all their communications, such as texts, Facebook, WhatsApp, Parler and other app messages, as well as emails and phone calls etc, the FBI are very likely proceeding from a position of already knowing that members of Congress were complicit in the insurrection, and probably already know who most of them were.

 

[newyorkguy]

Did they say anything about the criteria that allowed them to be hired? What aren't the managers doing that they should be doing?

I think they would say, "Above my pay grade."

I think they feel there should be better pre-screening of candidates. That training should be developed to better prepare candidates for the stress and challenges they will encounter, especially on patrol.

 

[Trebuchet]

Did they say anything about the criteria that allowed them to be hired? What aren't the managers doing that they should be doing?

I think they would say, "Above my pay grade."

I think they feel there should be better pre-screening of candidates. That training should be developed to better prepare candidates for the stress and challenges they will encounter, especially on patrol.

The problem, is, I think, that when the hierarchy consists of racist thugs, those are the candidates they'll select.