What's the story with physics?

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My university had no physics department. It had a natural philosophy department, seemingly because that's what they had always called the subject. Maybe a bit of a quaint affectation but everyone knew Nat Phil = Physics so it was fine. In this thread I have the impression Nat Phil is being used as a different kind of affectation. If it doesn't quite mean "Physics" in this context, what does it mean?
 
In this thread I have the impression Nat Phil is being used as a different kind of affectation. If it doesn't quite mean "Physics" in this context, what does it mean?

It means "I'm pretending to talk about physics, but I can make up any old **** I like and use the word philosophy as a get-out because I think that's what philosophers do."

Speaking as a physicist, these threads are of entertainment value only, in a similar way to videos of amusing accidents.

Dave
 
Newton was pretty clear he believed in two types of time.

Again perceived time and actual time, not two temporal dimensions.

Until the 1950's, it seems the idea of different "levels" of time was pretty common.

It simply doesn't exist anymore.

Even when you tell people "Newton believed in two types of time", they have no framework for understanding it so they just say "I don't believe you."

It's OK I believe you and have even given you a "framework for understanding" (perceived and actual), but still not another dimension of time. Further, since these types/levels of time discussed are about time we do observe and theorize they explicitly can't be, by simply your own assertion, the 'absolute time' you mentioned that is not the one "we observe and depict with physical theories".

The problem with naïve unrealism is that you can imagine it doing anything, regardless of if it exists or not.



Ok.

Isn't the wave function specifically unobservable?

Nope, it is in fact exactly what you do observe.

ETA: What you probably meant was 'Isn't the unobserved wave function specifically unobservable'. Which is a tautology and sounds rather silly when you actually say it.
 
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Again perceived time and actual time, not two temporal dimensions.

If you say so.



Nope, it is in fact exactly what you do observe.

ETA: What you probably meant was 'Isn't the unobserved wave function specifically unobservable'. Which is a tautology and sounds rather silly when you actually say it.

Lol
 
If you say so.



Not in the least.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/newton-stm/

Isaac Newton founded classical mechanics on the view that space is distinct from body and that time passes uniformly without regard to whether anything happens in the world. For this reason he spoke of absolute space and absolute time, so as to distinguish these entities from the various ways by which we measure them (which he called relative spaces and relative times).

http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/15525/1/Rynasiewicz2018NewtonsScholiumOnTimeSpacePlace+Motion.pdf

3. True Motion prior to Newton When Newton declares at the outset of the Scholium that he will distinguish between the absolute and relative, true and apparent, mathematical and common [vulgares] quantities, he intends to introduce one, not three distinctions. This is apparent at the beginning of Paragraph I, where, without pause he speaks of absolute, true and mathematical time in contrast to relative, apparent and common time. The terminology ‘absolute’ vs. ‘relative’ appears to be new with Newton.6 But ‘true’ vs. ‘apparent’ has a long history going back to antiquity, especially when predicated of motion. B


https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/newton-stm/scholium.html

Isaac Newton (1689) said:
I. Absolute, true, and mathematical time, of itself, and from its own nature, flows equably without relation to anything external, and by another name is called duration: relative, apparent, and common time, is some sensible and external (whether accurate or unequable) measure of duration by the means of motion, which is commonly used instead of true time; such as an hour, a day, a month, a year.
 
Not in the least.

You quote Newton as saying:

"I. Absolute, true, and mathematical time, of itself, and from its own nature, flows equably without relation to anything external, and by another name is called duration: relative, apparent, and common time, is some sensible and external (whether accurate or unequable) measure of duration by the means of motion, which is commonly used instead of true time; such as an hour, a day, a month, a year. "

Looks to me like Newton believes in two types of time.

You say there's just the one.

You see it the way I saw it, and the way everyone today sees it. A basic, direct realism.

Here's how I see it, and we'll use Everett to get there.

Imagine you have a particle simulation, something like this:

Code:
var particles = [...] // billions of particles
var t = 0
while (true) {
    t++
    
    // do physics on the particles
}

Now, imagine the in the billions of particles in the simulation, some subset of them is acting like a clock, and another subset of them, is acting like an observer with sensory apparatus and memory to produce and store measurement records.

As the program runs, t starts at 0 and increases by 1 every loop of the program.

Also, the observer will look at the clock and determine what time it is, based on its senses, and store a measurement record.

To Everett, that measurement record is the program's "relative state".

Basically we have the t variable, which we can see as the programmers of the model, and then we have the time measurement records of the internal observer.

Which is absolute and relative time.

This is a mathematical formulation of Plato's world of Forms/Ideals that underlies the world apparent to our senses.

It's also a mathematical formulation of Leibniz's monadology. Or Kant's noumena.

It's consistent with the world's religious traditions, all the great philosophers, and with the metaphysics of Newton, Einstein, and Everett.

I don't expect you to agree with that. I assume most people will go to their graves with whatever metaphysics they believe today.

So, if you think that's all gibberish, and there's just one simple understandable version of time, that's fine.

I can read Newton's own words. I've made my conclusions. It required a pretty radical reconstruction of the universe in my mind. It's not a pleasant experience. Best to just ignore all this crazy talk.
 
"I refuse to learn this!"

Direct realism is kind of a default mode of thinking these days.

I don't have to learn it.

I lived it, for the first the first half of my life.

I've advanced from that.


Who cares? Why would Newton's beliefs mean anything?

Again, I suggested we look at Newton's actual thoughts on space and time.

They aren't (imo) what they are purported to be in science education.

It is centered around this concept of measurement by motion.

Today we have something called the measurement problem.

Hugh Everett's solution, to me, looks a lot like Newton's worldview.
 
All discussions about the nature of time and space absent mathematical descriptions are empty blathering.
 
Direct realism is kind of a default mode of thinking these days.

I don't have to learn it.

I lived it, for the first the first half of my life.

I've advanced from that.

Are you deliberately being cryptic? What are you talking about?

Again, I suggested we look at Newton's actual thoughts on space and time.

Why? Newton's theories are obsolete.
 
All discussions about the nature of time and space absent mathematical descriptions are empty blathering.

My description of absolute time is the variable t in the mathematical model, whereas relative time is encoded in the memory configurations of the model's internal observers.

They are both present in the mathematics, but exist very differently, and fit Newton's definitions just as well as Everett's.
 
My description of absolute time is the variable t in the mathematical model, whereas relative time is encoded in the memory configurations of the model's internal observers.

They are both present in the mathematics, but exist very differently, and fit Newton's definitions just as well as Everett's.

My description of the universe is that of a cosmic egg laid by a giant brown chicken, which pecks at us until it hits someone, who then dies.

But I also don't have any math or evidence to prove it. Fun, eh?
 
My description of the universe is that of a cosmic egg laid by a giant brown chicken, which pecks at us until it hits someone, who then dies.

But I also don't have any math or evidence to prove it. Fun, eh?

What does that tell us about the measurement problem?
 
You quote Newton as saying:

"I. Absolute, true, and mathematical time, of itself, and from its own nature, flows equably without relation to anything external, and by another name is called duration: relative, apparent, and common time, is some sensible and external (whether accurate or unequable) measure of duration by the means of motion, which is commonly used instead of true time; such as an hour, a day, a month, a year. "

Looks to me like Newton believes in two types of time.

Nope, "and by another name". Same absolute time but just called "by another name" to specifically distinguish, as stated by Newton, that fallibility and imprecision of our perception and measurement of that explicit absolute time.

You say there's just the one.

As did he.


You see it the way I saw it, and the way everyone today sees it. A basic, direct realism.

Here's how I see it, and we'll use Everett to get there.

Imagine you have a particle simulation, something like this:

Code:
var particles = [...] // billions of particles
var t = 0
while (true) {
    t++
    
    // do physics on the particles
}

Now, imagine the in the billions of particles in the simulation, some subset of them is acting like a clock, and another subset of them, is acting like an observer with sensory apparatus and memory to produce and store measurement records.

As the program runs, t starts at 0 and increases by 1 every loop of the program.

Also, the observer will look at the clock and determine what time it is, based on its senses, and store a measurement record.

To Everett, that measurement record is the program's "relative state".

Basically we have the t variable, which we can see as the programmers of the model, and then we have the time measurement records of the internal observer.

Which is absolute and relative time.

Great, as I said actual and perceived, glad you could assert that Everett agrees with what I and Newton said.


This is a mathematical formulation of Plato's world of Forms/Ideals that underlies the world apparent to our senses.

It's also a mathematical formulation of Leibniz's monadology. Or Kant's noumena.

It's consistent with the world's religious traditions, all the great philosophers, and with the metaphysics of Newton, Einstein, and Everett.

I don't expect you to agree with that. I assume most people will go to their graves with whatever metaphysics they believe today.

So, if you think that's all gibberish, and there's just one simple understandable version of time, that's fine.

Dimension of time. Why is it people simply trying to ensconce themselves in the language of science can't seem to bring themselves to actually and effectively use the language of science? The vagueness of common language gives them all that wiggle room they so desperately require.


I can read Newton's own words. I've made my conclusions. It required a pretty radical reconstruction of the universe in my mind. It's not a pleasant experience. Best to just ignore all this crazy talk.

Evidently it also required a pretty radical reconstruction in your mind of what people whom you wish to posit your own thinking upon have actually said.

You see, you wouldn't have to make your own "conclusions" if you had actually just read (as opposed to read into) Newton's own words. By your own assertion apparently at some point you did simply read Newton's own words. Then, for whatever reason, decided just to posit your own "conclusions" upon them. While that in and of it self is not problematic when you start to lose the distinction between your own "conclusions" and his actual words, it certainly can be.
 
Nope, "and by another name". Same absolute time but just called "by another name" to specifically distinguish, as stated by Newton, that fallibility and imprecision of our perception and measurement of that explicit absolute time.

Oof.

Let's parse this together.

* Absolute, true, and mathematical time, of itself, and from its own nature, flows equably without relation to anything external, and by another name is called duration:
* relative, apparent, and common time, is some sensible and external (whether accurate or unequable) measure of duration by the means of motion, which is commonly used instead of true time; such as an hour, a day, a month, a year.

A little trimming:

* Absolute time flows equably without relation to anything external, and by another name is called duration:
* relative time is some sensible measure of duration by the means of motion; such as an hour, a day, a month, a year. "

Two different concepts.

Relative time is a measurement.

Absolute time is not.
 
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Just about as much as your idea does. That's my point.

My "idea" is that Newton's definitions of relative time and space as measurements seems pretty consistent with Everett's relative state formulation of quantum mechanics, which is pretty relevant in discussions about the measurement problem.

Haven't seen any mentions of demi-ducks though.
 
My "idea" is that Newton's definitions of relative time and space as measurements seems pretty consistent with Everett's relative state formulation of quantum mechanics, which is pretty relevant in discussions about the measurement problem.

And yet it explains nothing. You do not, in fact, have any calculations to support this idea, do you?
 
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