Merged US may close Cuba Embassy over 'health attacks'

[Checkmite]

US investigates second suspected case of mystery 'syndrome' near White House

Multiple sources tell CNN that the episodes affected two officials on the National Security Council in November 2020, one the day after the presidential election and one several weeks later. The cases are consistent with an inexplicable constellation of sensory experiences and physical symptoms that have sickened more than 100 US diplomats, spies and troops around the globe and have come to be known as "Havana Syndrome."

The intelligence community still isn't sure who is causing the strange array of nervous system symptoms, or if they can be definitively termed "attacks." Even the technology that might cause such an inconsistent set of symptoms is a matter of debate.

The first incident, previously reported by CNN, occurred after the 2020 election as the NSC official was attempting to pass through an unstaffed gate near the Ellipse, according to a source with direct knowledge of the incident. That person suffered only mild symptoms after the encounter, including headaches and sleeplessness, all of which went away after a week.

The second official, whose case has not been previously reported, was struck weeks later near an entrance to the White House grounds, two sources familiar with the matter told CNN. The second official suffered more serious symptoms and was ill enough to seek immediate medical treatment, the sources said.

For five years now, investigators have struggled to explain the strange experiences reported by US diplomats and other government workers in Cuba, Russia, China and elsewhere -- episodes that in some cases have led to chronic headaches and brain injuries. Victims have reported experiencing sudden vertigo, headaches and head pressure, sometimes accompanying by a "piercing directional noise." Some reported being able to escape the symptoms simply by moving to another room -- and step back into them by returning to their original position.

The number of suspected cases worldwide is increasing, according to a recent statement from the leaders of the Senate Intelligence Committee. There have been more than 130 cases worldwide over the past five years, according to the New York Times, which reported at least one episode taking place overseas in the last two weeks.

Under pressure from lawmakers and victims, the Biden administration has dramatically ramped up its efforts to "identify the cause of these incidents, determine attribution, increase collection efforts, and prevent" what the intelligence community now terms "anomalous health incidents," a spokesman for the Office of the Director of National Intelligence said in a statement on Tuesday.

CIA Director Bill Burns has begun to receive daily briefings on the matter, including some from victims of these strange encounters, according to two sources familiar with the matter.

But even a definitive diagnosis proving any one case is, in fact, "Havana Syndrome," has proven frustratingly difficult, officials say. Victims suffer a myriad of different symptoms both initially and over time, and scientists, engineers and medical experts are divided over whether all of the cases under investigation can be attributed to a single cause.

The government has successfully identified and fielded a blood test that can point to some markers that may indicate exposure, according to two US officials with direct knowledge of the matter. That test was among the diagnostic tools used in recent cases of intelligence officers who reported symptoms consistent with Havana Syndrome, and in the case of at least one of the White House victims, according to sources familiar with the matter. But the test alone is not enough to offer a clear diagnosis.

Multiple agencies are also trying to create or repurpose a type of sensor that could be used to detect anomalous activity and, theoretically, help establish that personnel are being hit, according to two current US officials and one former US official -- although sources cautioned such a tool would only be able to detect the activity, not protect from it.

A March report from the National Academy of Sciences found that "directed, pulsed radiofrequency energy" was the most likely cause of the strange set of symptoms -- so-called microwave energy -- but officials caution that even that isn't known for sure, and some academics have publicly dismissed the theory as unsupported.

"The whole 'microwave' theory is not because someone has any intelligence to suggest it, or someone saw it happen," said one source familiar with the intelligence on the matter. "This is what's been so maddening. It's based purely on symptoms."

"We have no hard leads -- just all circumstantial evidence," the official added. "And it's circumstantial evidence that could also be something completely different."

A satisfactorily balanced article about the issue overall.

It sounds to me like the government is taking a scientific approach to the question - having developed a blood test and looking into a sensor that gather data to show objectively whether something is actually happening to a person who is being "attacked".

 

[dann]

it raises an awful lot of questions?

Experts say they don't believe president Biden is in danger from such an attack while inside the White House. But what about when he ventures out?
Former CIA officer describes experience with mysterious illness (CNN on YouTube, May 18, 2021)

It is interesting that the experts seem to believe that the alleged microwave attacks can't go through walls. That wasn't the assumption in Havana!
It is also interesting to hear about "mysterious incidents just steps from the White House that sickened two national security officials. ... One of those two officials needed to see immediate medical treatment. ... These two officials were struck with those illnesses right here in one of the most heavily secured areas of the entire country." (Reporter pointing at White House lawn.)

So far, the Cuban authorities have been blamed for either being the perpetrators of the alleged attacks or not having done their utmost to protect U.S. embassy personnel in Havana, and now we hear that national security officials aren't even safe "in one of the most heavily secured areas of the entire country" of the USA.

Who is to be blamed for this lack of protection? I assume Cubans are not in charge of protecting the White House ...
And will national security officials from now on be withdrawn from the White House area since they don't seem to be safe there?
Will anybody who is "struck" with "illnesses" and ""sickened" anywhere in the world from now on be assumed to be victims of a mysterious, probably microwave, attack?

 

[dann]

US investigates second suspected case of mystery 'syndrome' near White House

Multiple sources tell CNN that the episodes affected two officials on the National Security Council in November 2020, one the day after the presidential election and one several weeks later. The cases are consistent with an inexplicable constellation of sensory experiences and physical symptoms[/I] that have sickened more than 100 US diplomats, spies and troops around the globe and have come to be known as "Havana Syndrome." The intelligence community still isn't sure who is causing the strange array of nervous system symptoms, or if they can be definitively termed "attacks." Even the technology that might cause such an inconsistent set of symptoms is a matter of debate. The first incident, previously reported by CNN, occurred after the 2020 election as the NSC official was attempting to pass through an unstaffed gate near the Ellipse, according to a source with direct knowledge of the incident. That person suffered only mild symptoms after the encounter, including headaches and sleeplessness, all of which went away after a week. The second official, whose case has not been previously reported, was struck weeks later near an entrance to the White House grounds, two sources familiar with the matter told CNN. The second official suffered more serious symptoms and was ill enough to seek immediate medical treatment, the sources said. For five years now, investigators have struggled to explain the strange experiences reported by US diplomats and other government workers in Cuba, Russia, China and elsewhere -- episodes that in some cases have led to chronic headaches and brain injuries. Victims have reported experiencing sudden vertigo, headaches and head pressure, sometimes accompanying by a "piercing directional noise." Some reported being able to escape the symptoms simply by moving to another room -- and step back into them by returning to their original position. The number of suspected cases worldwide is increasing, according to a recent statement from the leaders of the Senate Intelligence Committee. There have been more than 130 cases worldwide over the past five years, according to the New York Times, which reported at least one episode taking place overseas in the last two weeks. Under pressure from lawmakers and victims, the Biden administration has dramatically ramped up its efforts to "identify the cause of these incidents, determine attribution, increase collection efforts, and prevent" what the intelligence community now terms "anomalous health incidents," a spokesman for the Office of the Director of National Intelligence said in a statement on Tuesday. CIA Director Bill Burns has begun to receive daily briefings on the matter, including some from victims of these strange encounters, according to two sources familiar with the matter. But even a definitive diagnosis proving any one case is, in fact, "Havana Syndrome," has proven frustratingly difficult, officials say. Victims suffer a myriad of different symptoms both initially and over time, and scientists, engineers and medical experts are divided over whether all of the cases under investigation can be attributed to a single cause. The government has successfully identified and fielded a blood test that can point to some markers that may indicate exposure, according to two US officials with direct knowledge of the matter. That test was among the diagnostic tools used in recent cases of intelligence officers who reported symptoms consistent with Havana Syndrome, and in the case of at least one of the White House victims, according to sources familiar with the matter. But the test alone is not enough to offer a clear diagnosis. Multiple agencies are also trying to create or repurpose a type of sensor that could be used to detect anomalous activity and, theoretically, help establish that personnel are being hit, according to two current US officials and one former US official -- although sources cautioned such a tool would only be able to detect the activity, not protect from it. A March report from the National Academy of Sciences found that "directed, pulsed radiofrequency energy" was the most likely cause of the strange set of symptoms -- so-called microwave energy -- but officials caution that even that isn't known for sure, and some academics have publicly dismissed the theory as unsupported. "The whole 'microwave' theory is not because someone has any intelligence to suggest it, or someone saw it happen," said one source familiar with the intelligence on the matter. "This is what's been so maddening. It's based purely on symptoms." "We have no hard leads -- just all circumstantial evidence," the official added. "And it's circumstantial evidence that could also be something completely different."

A satisfactorily balanced article about the issue overall. It sounds to me like the government is taking a scientific approach to the question - having developed a blood test and looking into a sensor that gather data to show objectively whether something is actually happening to a person who is being "attacked".

It sounds to me like the government just can't give up on the idea that attacks actually took place - based on nothing but so-called "circumstantial evidence that could also be something completely different," i.e. "an inconsistent set of symptoms." When I read that there "have been more than 130 cases worldwide over the past five years," it makes me think that it is time to treat this case the way I tackled the 'mysterious' deaths of U.S. American tourists in the Dominican Republic that had people worried a few years ago: How many spies, diplomats and embassy workers does the USA have stationed around the world? How many of them have come down with "an inconsistent set of symptoms" including headaches and sleeplessness? More than in the previous five years? More than you would expect? How many more? You would of course have to take into consideration that they have all heard about the 'Havana Syndrome' now. That would not have been the case six years ago. But unfortunately, those numbers are no doubt as top secret as is the new blood test mentioned in the quotation. I am beginning to suspect that the main purpose of this blood test could be to reassure hysterical CIA agents. It could be a way to demonstrate to them that their fears are taken seriously in order to calm them down: 'You can rest assured. There is nothing to worry about. Your blood test tells us that you have not been exposed to microwave weapons. Your headache is not a symptom of a sinister attack. Take two Advil and get back to work.'

 

[dann]

it raises an awful lot of questions?



It is interesting that the experts seem to believe that the alleged microwave attacks can't go through walls. That wasn't the assumption in Havana!
It is also interesting to hear about "mysterious incidents just steps from the White House that sickened two national security officials. ... One of those two officials needed to see immediate medical treatment. ... These two officials were struck with those illnesses right here in one of the most heavily secured areas of the entire country." (Reporter pointing at White House lawn.)

So far, the Cuban authorities have been blamed for either being the perpetrators of the alleged attacks or not having done their utmost to protect U.S. embassy personnel in Havana, and now we hear that national security officials aren't even safe "in one of the most heavily secured areas of the entire country" of the USA.

Who is to be blamed for this lack of protection? I assume Cubans are not in charge of protecting the White House ...
And will national security officials from now on be withdrawn from the White House area since they don't seem to be safe there?
Will anybody who is "struck" with "illnesses" and ""sickened" anywhere in the world from now on be assumed to be victims of a mysterious, probably microwave, attack?

Former members of the Trump administration will probably continue to call it the "Havana Syndrome" the same way they can't let go of the "China virus", but isn't it about time we start calling it the CIA virus?!
I am pretty sure that what the two national security officials came down with hasn't got much to do with the original version. From what we have been told so far, not a single cricket was involved in the Washington "encounters".
In order to distinguish between the different strains for the purpose of evidence-based medical science, it might be appropriate as well as expedient to assume that the two new cases came down with the White House variant.

 

[Checkmite]

it raises an awful lot of questions?

It is interesting that the experts seem to believe that the alleged microwave attacks can't go through walls. That wasn't the assumption in Havana!

More specifically, they seem to believe that the alleged microwave attacks can't go through The White House's walls. That wasn't the assumption in Havana, but then the White House isn't in Havana.

It is also interesting to hear about "mysterious incidents just steps from the White House that sickened two national security officials. ... One of those two officials needed to see immediate medical treatment. ... These two officials were struck with those illnesses right here in one of the most heavily secured areas of the entire country." (Reporter pointing at White House lawn.)

So far, the Cuban authorities have been blamed for either being the perpetrators of the alleged attacks or not having done their utmost to protect U.S. embassy personnel in Havana, and now we hear that national security officials aren't even safe "in one of the most heavily secured areas of the entire country" of the USA.

Well, no Cuba hasn't really been blamed. I think Donald Trump brayed something about "they know who it is" - "they" meaning Cuba - but you have to keep in mind that Trump was antagonistic towards American intelligence agencies for the entirety of his term, and the more confidently he asserted something, the more likely it was that the USIC's assessment was exactly the opposite. And I don't mean that rhetorically; I mean the fact that Trump said Cuba "knows who it is" is literally evidence that the intelligence community may not think that, and may even positively think that's not true.

 

[Checkmite]

Former members of the Trump administration will probably continue to call it the "Havana Syndrome" the same way they can't let go of the "China virus", but isn't it about time we start calling it the CIA virus?!

Why? The first victims were State Department diplomats.

 

[Checkmite]

It sounds to me like the government just can't give up on the idea that attacks actually took place - based on nothing but so-called "circumstantial evidence that could also be something completely different," i.e. "an inconsistent set of symptoms."

Well that's what happens when something can't positively be shown to be the case but can't be definitively ruled out, either. See, the US government does have a responsibility to protect its agents and diplomats and security personnel. It can't just laugh off a potential threat as silly or unsubstantiated just because the evidence isn't rock-solid, or because it could also be something completely different, and ignore the fact that critical employees are nevertheless winding up in the hospital, some of them with physical brain damage. If it IS a weapon, there's obviously an obligation to stop it; and if it is not a weapon, there's still an obligation find out just what the hell it is so they can stop it.

 

[dann]

it raises an awful lot of questions?

It is interesting that the experts seem to believe that the alleged microwave attacks can't go through walls. That wasn't the assumption in Havana!

More specifically, they seem to believe that the alleged microwave attacks can't go through The White House's walls. That wasn't the assumption in Havana, but then the White House isn't in Havana.

You are grasping at straws now! Are you telling us that The White House's walls are made of an alloy of vibranium and unobtainium? Tell us more about it! It is one of the few science-fiction ideas that we haven't heard in the context of the White House syndrome yet!

Well, no Cuba hasn't really been blamed. I think Donald Trump brayed something about "they know who it is" - "they" meaning Cuba - but you have to keep in mind that Trump was antagonistic towards American intelligence agencies for the entirety of his term, and the more confidently he asserted something, the more likely it was that the USIC's assessment was exactly the opposite. And I don't mean that rhetorically; I mean the fact that Trump said Cuba "knows who it is" is literally evidence that the intelligence community may not think that, and may even positively think that's not true.

You have to be cautious now! Your bias makes you forget what you have read in this thread, and it ought to be common knowledge by now. (Actually, it's the whole point of inventing the 'Havana syndrome': to put a stop to Cuba-US diplomatic relations. Cuba has to be blamed!)

Havana syndrome is a set of medical signs and symptoms reported by United States and Canadian embassy staff in Cuba dating back to late 2016 as well as subsequently in some other countries, including the United States.
In 2017, President Donald Trump accused Cuba of perpetrating unspecified attacks causing these symptoms.
Havana syndrome (Wikipedia)

"I do believe Cuba's responsible, I do believe that," Trump said in the Rose Garden.
Trump blames Cuba for mysterious attacks on US diplomats (CNN, Oct. 17, 2021)

A day after the F.B.I. ruled out a sonic attack, Marco Rubio, who despised Obama’s policy of restoring relations with his family’s homeland, gaveled open a hearing on Cuba before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. As far as Rubio was concerned, the “attacks” were a given—as were the weapon and the assailant. “There is no way that someone could carry out these number of attacks, with that kind of technology, without the Cubans knowing about it,” he told Fox News. “They either did it, or they know who did it.”
The Real Story behind the Havana Embassy Mystery (VanityFair, Jan. 6, 2019)

Your attempt to make the "American intelligence agencies," and not Cuba, the victims of Trump is ridiculous. I guess your next fairy tale will be that Trump is the guy who attacked the two national security officials on the White House lawn.
Maybe they should consider making a suit out of that vibranium-unobtanium alloy. In the meantime, some people swear that tinfoil can do the trick.

 

[dann]

Former members of the Trump administration will probably continue to call it the "Havana Syndrome" the same way they can't let go of the "China virus", but isn't it about time we start calling it the CIA virus?!

Why? The first victims were State Department diplomats.

Why?! Obviously because the first alleged victims were CIA agents:

Between December 30, 2016, and February 9, 2017, at least three C.I.A. officers working under diplomatic cover in Cuba had reported troubling sensations that seemed to leave serious injuries. When the agency sent reinforcements to Havana, at least two of them were afflicted as well.

All the victims described being bombarded by waves of pressure in their heads. Unlike Lee, though, the C.I.A. officers said that they heard loud sounds, similar to cicadas, which seemed to follow them from one room to another. But when they opened an outside door the sounds abruptly stopped. Some of the victims said that it felt as if they were standing in an invisible beam of energy.
(...)
On December 30, 2016, Patient Zero in the Cuba crisis visited the Embassy health office. The patient, a C.I.A. officer who was operating under diplomatic cover, told a nurse that he had experienced strange sensations of sound and pressure while in his home, followed by painful headaches and dizziness.
The Mystery of the Havana Syndrome (NewYorker, Nov. 9, 2018)

 

[dann]

Well that's what happens when something can't positively be shown to be the case but can't be definitively ruled out, either. See, the US government does have a responsibility to protect its agents and diplomats and security personnel. It can't just laugh off a potential threat as silly or unsubstantiated just because the evidence isn't rock-solid, or because it could also be something completely different, and ignore the fact that critical employees are nevertheless winding up in the hospital, some of them with physical brain damage. If it IS a weapon, there's obviously an obligation to stop it; and if it is not a weapon, there's still an obligation find out just what the hell it is so they can stop it.

There is a big difference between laughing off "a potential threat" and making up a potential threat and encouraging your employees to believe in it. It is the way to spread mass hysteria. Like I said in post 823, it is possible that the "blood tests" are an attempt to alleviate the stress of the people who have come down with mass psychogenic illness thanks to the alleged sonic and/or microwave attacks:

I am beginning to suspect that the main purpose of this blood test could be to reassure hysterical CIA agents. It could be a way to demonstrate to them that their fears are taken seriously in order to calm them down:

'You can rest assured. There is nothing to worry about. Your blood test tells us that you have not been exposed to microwave weapons. Your headache is not a symptom of a sinister attack. Take two Advil and get back to work.'

If that is the case, then good riddance.

 

[Checkmite]

There is a big difference between laughing off "a potential threat" and making up a potential threat and encouraging your employees to believe in it. It is the way to spread mass hysteria.

Sure; but right now the theory that the government invented a fictional illness and then encouraged their diplomats in Cuba or elsewhere to believe in its existence in the hopes that they might eventually "come down with it" is simple conspiracy-mongering.

 

[dann]

Sure; but right now the theory that the government invented a fictional illness and then encouraged their diplomats in Cuba or elsewhere to believe in its existence in the hopes that they might eventually "come down with it" is simple conspiracy-mongering.

Let me elaborate a little:

What happened was that, due to the extremely annoying sound of Jamaican crickets in Havana, people working for the U.S. government, the CIA agents mentioned in my posts above, starting with the CIA agent referred to as patient Zero, became convinced that they were exposed to a sonic attack.

CIA agent Zero may have felt unwell for other reasons. We have no way to tell since we don't have access to his medical journals. But he appears to have been convinced that the alleged sonic attack was the cause of his ailment - whether of a physiological or psychogenic nature - and as he diligently spread the story to other agents, diplomats and embassy workers, including his Canadian neighbors, he created the first wave of psychogenic illness, the so-called Havana Syndrome.

Instead of considering this as the most logical explanation for what was going on, the government of the USA latched on to and encouraged the idea that embassy-affiliated U.S. personnel were being attacked either by the Cuban government, rogue elements of the Cuban state, or other adversaries, i.e. Russians or Chinese, working under Cuba's protection or at least approval. Blaming Cuba for sonic, chemical, microwave, whatever attacks was then used as an excuse for rolling back the diplomatic relations with Cuba.

In other words, the USA was not doing its utmost to protect its poor diplomats from harm, which was the fairy tale you presented. The USA has been the instigator of the whole thing from the very beginning, and the State Department is responsible for spreading the mass hysteria to the rest of the world in a second wave, and now it has apparently come home to roost in the shape of a third wave hitting the White House, which looks like a case of poetic justice to me.


ETA: Cases of psychogenic illness should probably not be dismissed as "a fictional illness." The threat from an imaginary attack was fictional.

 

[Checkmite]

What happened was that, due to the extremely annoying sound of Jamaican crickets in Havana, people working for the U.S. government, the CIA agents mentioned in my posts above, starting with the CIA agent referred to as patient Zero, became convinced that they were exposed to a sonic attack.

Doesn't quite work. Yes, I know that Cuban authorities, and you, leapt on the "crickets" explanation as if it solved every reported case of this effect; but there are problems with the explanation:

A single person, who traveled to Cuba apparently several months after the initial incidents, recorded a sound they thought might be involved and gave it to the news media. That turned out to be the sound that sounds like crickets.

We don't know if that sound is the sound the actual victims heard.

Only some of the alleged victims reported hearing any sounds at all. Others just reported feeling pressure, vibrations, or odd sensations while experiencing the other symptoms. Cricket sounds would not have caused those symptoms.

We don't know if the first person to show up at the hospital (i.e., "Patient Zero) with symptoms was one of the people who reported hearing sounds.

At least some of the alleged victims had been on post for several months, meaning they would've been exposed to and used to the sounds of the crickets well before the sudden onset of symptoms.

Instead of considering this as the most logical explanation for what was going on, the government of the USA latched on to and encouraged the idea that embassy-affiliated U.S. personnel were being attacked either by the Cuban government, rogue elements of the Cuban state, or other adversaries, i.e. Russians or Chinese, working under Cuba's protection or at least approval.

There wasn't enough evidence that what was going on was purely psychogenic for the government to leap to that conclusion as the definitive answer - and, for what it's worth, there still isn't.

 

[dann]

There ain't nobody here but us crickets

Doesn't quite work. Yes, I know that Cuban authorities, and you, leapt on the "crickets" explanation as if it solved every reported case of this effect; but there are problems with the explanation:

I don't know about the Cuban authorities, but I didn't leap on anything. You need to go back to square one, the OP, and to my original title of the thread before it was merged with another one: Alien Attack? Mass Hysteria? Conspiracy?
No crickets!

A single person, who traveled to Cuba apparently several months after the initial incidents, recorded a sound they thought might be involved and gave it to the news media. That turned out to be the sound that sounds like crickets.

We don't know if that sound is the sound the actual victims heard.

We do know that this was the sound the 'actual' victims heard because they said so!

Only some of the alleged victims reported hearing any sounds at all. Others just reported feeling pressure, vibrations, or odd sensations while experiencing the other symptoms. Cricket sounds would not have caused those symptoms.

Cricket sounds would not have caused any symptoms - except, maybe, sleeplessness while the crickets were still at it. But yes, their symptoms were all over the place (odd sensations?!!) and yet they were interpreted as having been caused by the same "sonic attacks" until researchers identified the recorded sound as that of crickets and were even able to reproduce it.

We don't know if the first person to show up at the hospital (i.e., "Patient Zero) with symptoms was one of the people who reported hearing sounds.

We do know that he was the one who was spreading the story. You are just as annoyed by those crickets as those people were, it seems, and as was everybody else when the tape that they considered to be proof positive of sonic attacks turned out to be nothing but crickets.

At least some of the alleged victims had been on post for several months, meaning they would've been exposed to and used to the sounds of the crickets well before the sudden onset of symptoms.

'That is just awful. We thought it was just animal sounds, and now you are telling us that we have been under attack?!!' (Based on the description, the sound of this particular breed of crickets may not be loud enough to cause tinnitus or brain damage, but it is loud and annoying enough to be something that you don't just get used to.) You are making up the story of "the sudden onset of symptoms." As with everything else, it was all over the place.
When you are dealing with sick building syndrome, you may also run into people who have lived years in a building with no problems until "the sudden onset of symptoms" when they hear the story. Much the same way that people who suffer from EHS are fine until somebody tells them that have been living close to a 5G mast. (Or maybe they are not fine, but the story about the masts convinces them that they are the cause of their suffering.)

There wasn't enough evidence that what was going on was purely psychogenic for the government to leap to that conclusion as the definitive answer - and, for what it's worth, there still isn't.

The government leapt to that conclusion because that conclusion served the government's purpose. Do I really have to remind you that the government was the Trump administration?! You know, the government that insisted on scientific integrity and that nobody would ever suspect of jumping to conclusions without enough evidence?
The evidence was always there, and many of the embassy employees were aware of it - and therefore never jumped to the conclusion that they were under attack.

You seem to be incapable of understanding that an (otherwise) "inexplicable constellation of sensory experiences and physical symptoms" is only inexplicable when you are doing your utmost to avoid the one explanation that actually fits.
Out of all the thousands of "US diplomats, spies and troops around the globe" who have reported sensory experiences and physical symptoms of one sort or another in more than four years, they have managed to find a small handful of people whose symptoms seem to be connected to brain damage or tinnitus. The rest have been dismissed and for the most part sent back to work. That is not a serious attempt to find evidence of anything. It's trawling for cases to prove your desired outcome even though not a single case seems to have been caused by an attack and might have a number of very natural causes. (And in the case of hearing loss, the onset had in some cases been diagnosed before people went to Cuba.)

 

[Checkmite]

I don't know about the Cuban authorities, but I didn't leap on anything. You need to go back to square one, the OP, and to my original title of the thread before it was merged with another one: Alien Attack? Mass Hysteria? Conspiracy?
No crickets!

Of course because the "cricket clip" hadn't even been reported at that point?

As soon as it was, and a scientist proposed that it might be a cricket, ever since that point you have been unwavering in your certainty that crickets explains the entire affair.

We do know that this was the sound the 'actual' victims heard because they said so!

"They" did not say so. I think it was reported that one person actually said so in so many words.

But here's the thing - if the crickets are in Havana, then everyone must have heard them, whether they experienced symptoms or not, and whether they heard any sounds that occurred to them as associated with the symptoms or not. So simply playing a recording months later and asking "did you hear anything like this" isn't really the smoking gun that one might necessarily believe it to be. It's essentially a leading question - the sound WILL be familiar to them, and they WILL remember hearing it around the time of the events., and it could alter their recollections. This is the same sort of suggestibility that results in mass hysteria.

We do know that he was the one who was spreading the story.

Well, no we don't. We know he felt something strange that caused him to seek medical attention, and to report the situation to his boss because he thought it was possible might be some kind of "attack". We don't know if he said anything to other individuals on his own accord. He may have, but we do not know.

And if he personally WAS "spreading the stories", you can't blame that on some kind of nefarious US government plot to deliberately infect its diplomatic corps in Havana with a "memetic" illness as an excuse to shut down the embassy.

'That is just awful. We thought it was just animal sounds, and now you are telling us that we have been under attack?!!' (Based on the description, the sound of this particular breed of crickets may not be loud enough to cause tinnitus or brain damage, but it is loud and annoying enough to be something that you don't just get used to.) You are making up the story of "the sudden onset of symptoms." As with everything else, it was all over the place.

Making up? Of course not. Whatever was happening to them, there was - in their own perceptions - a moment when the "attack" began on them personally, that hadn't been perceived to be happening to them prior to that point. That's what I mean by "sudden onset". As in, "suddenly, this evening at about 7:35PM, I started experiencing [symptom] for the first time".

Do I really have to remind you that the government was the Trump administration?! You know, the government that insisted on scientific integrity and that nobody would ever suspect of jumping to conclusions without enough evidence?

No, but apparently I have to remind you that the Trump administration was antagonistic to the US intelligence agencies, which were the ones initially reporting and investigating these incidents. I also have to remind you that the Trump administration moved the Israeli embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem without needing to invent a fake illness and convince embassy staff they were suffering from it as an excuse. And I have to remind you that Trump isn't the president anymore, but this problem hasn't gone away with him.

The evidence was always there, and many of the embassy employees were aware of it - and therefore never jumped to the conclusion that they were under attack.

What evidence? What are you talking about?

None of the initial reports say that any of the affected people at first believed they were just hearing crickets. If all they thought they were hearing was crickets, why would they even have reported it at the time? You're confabulating.

You seem to be incapable of understanding that an (otherwise) "inexplicable constellation of sensory experiences and physical symptoms" is only inexplicable when you are doing your utmost to avoid the one explanation that actually fits.
Out of all the thousands of "US diplomats, spies and troops around the globe" who have reported sensory experiences and physical symptoms of one sort or another in more than four years, they have managed to find a small handful of people whose symptoms seem to be connected to brain damage or tinnitus. The rest have been dismissed and for the most part sent back to work. That is not a serious attempt to find evidence of anything.

Of course only the people who have suffered actual brain damage and other lasting debilitating effects are still receiving care. The other ones stopped needing it once their symptoms went away. Of course they've been sent back to work. How does sending them back to work after they've recovered prove a lack of seriousness in looking for evidence? That's a non-sequitur.

 

[dann]

Of course because the "cricket clip" hadn't even been reported at that point?

Exactly! At first, we only had the descriptions of people's symptoms and their alleged experiences of the alleged attack. When the cricket recording was released by AP, people in this thread started analyzing it and found that the frequency of the recorded sound was similar to that of recordings of crickets.

As soon as it was, and a scientist proposed that it might be a cricket, ever since that point you have been unwavering in your certainty that crickets explains the entire affair.

Your memory is extremely bad. Not in general, I guess, but due to your bias: You remember what you want to remember and make your memories fit your bias. If future, I recommend that you spend a little more time looking at what actually happened in this thread. The truth of the matter is that the researchers analyzing the recording and coming up with the explanation that it was the sound of crickets, modulated by being reflected off of surfaces, a condition that they were able to reproduce, that happened much later than the consensus reached by most participants in this thread. And I had very little to do with that because my knowledge of acoustics is not exactly extensive.
And it was more than one scientist, by the way.

"They" did not say so. I think it was reported that one person actually said so in so many words.

I'm getting fed up with your "I think" argument. In spite of what you think, it was more than one person. They said so.

But here's the thing - if the crickets are in Havana, then everyone must have heard them, whether they experienced symptoms or not, and whether they heard any sounds that occurred to them as associated with the symptoms or not. So simply playing a recording months later and asking "did you hear anything like this" isn't really the smoking gun that one might necessarily believe it to be. It's essentially a leading question - the sound WILL be familiar to them, and they WILL remember hearing it around the time of the events., and it could alter their recollections. This is the same sort of suggestibility that results in mass hysteria.

Again your bias is the only argument, and you make up a narrative to go along with it:
They didn't later ask "did you hear anything like this"? Or 'is this sound familiar to you?' You are making yourself dumber than I think you are. It was obvious that the recording would be played to them in the context of the investigation of the alleged attacks.
If you can come up with anything suggesting that people believed that it was an investigation into the question 'Things I heard at one time or another in Cuba, apropos of nothing', feel free to do so.
People recognized it as the sound they heard when they were being 'attacked'.

Well, no we don't. We know he felt something strange that caused him to seek medical attention, and to report the situation to his boss because he thought it was possible might be some kind of "attack". We don't know if he said anything to other individuals on his own accord. He may have, but we do not know.

Yes, we do know, but your memory of the many things we have discussed in this very long thread is not very good. Agent Zero was the one who got the story started, not only among U.S. Americans. He was also the one who told the Canadians about the alleged attacks.
It is possible that you don't know, but we do!

And if he personally WAS "spreading the stories", you can't blame that on some kind of nefarious US government plot to deliberately infect its diplomatic corps in Havana with a "memetic" illness as an excuse to shut down the embassy.

I don't blame "some kind of nefarious US government plot." I just explained it to you a few posts ago: CIA agent Zero got the whole thing started, others joined in, and the US government used the story to cut back on diplomatic relations with Cuba. That this contributed to spreading the mass psychogenic illness to U.S. spies and agents and security officials all over the world, and now even on the White House lawn, was a side effect of the lie. Not surprising or unpredictable but also not deliberate.

Making up? Of course not. Whatever was happening to them, there was - in their own perceptions - a moment when the "attack" began on them personally, that hadn't been perceived to be happening to them prior to that point. That's what I mean by "sudden onset". As in, "suddenly, this evening at about 7:35PM, I started experiencing [symptom] for the first time".

Except that this is not the case. Some people probably began to experience 'symptoms' the moment they were told about the 'attacks'. Others, probably in particular the ones who were later analyzed as having actual physiological trauma caused by whatever, may have had symptoms of one kind or another for months before they heard the story that gave them a framework for reinterpreting those symptoms.

No, but apparently I have to remind you that the Trump administration was antagonistic to the US intelligence agencies, which were the ones initially reporting and investigating these incidents. I also have to remind you that the Trump administration moved the Israeli embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem without needing to invent a fake illness and convince embassy staff they were suffering from it as an excuse. And I have to remind you that Trump isn't the president anymore, but this problem hasn't gone away with him.

No, you don't have to remind me. Trump is antagonistic to anybody who doesn't agree with his current intentions. In the case of the CIA agents and their stories about sonic attacks, you haven't heard him utter the slightest bit of mistrust of those agents. Then or now. They served his purpose, so he was on their side. Their story was to be believed not doubted.
I don't think Trump needed the excuse of sonic attacks to shut down diplomatic relations with Cuba. But the story was there, and his State Department found it convenient to use it.

What evidence? What are you talking about?

I am talking about other embassy workers being well-aware that their co-workers were caught up in a wave of hysteria. Some of them were calmed down by their Cuban janitors telling them that the sound they heard was nothing but crickets.
You need to go through this thread again because this has also been mentioned, more than once, with links to the sources.

None of the initial reports say that any of the affected people at first believed they were just hearing crickets. If all they thought they were hearing was crickets, why would they even have reported it at the time? You're confabulating.

It is grotesque that you accuse me of confabulation.
No, the affected people obviously didn't think they were hearing crickets. They either came down with a bad case of mass psychogenic illness, or they had had symptoms for a while, which they now interpreted in the context of the new narrative: sonic attacks!
The reports about people who were aware what was going on came later as a result of investigative journalism. If it weren't for critical journalists, we would also never have heard about CIA agent Zero.

Of course only the people who have suffered actual brain damage and other lasting debilitating effects are still receiving care. The other ones stopped needing it once their symptoms went away. Of course they've been sent back to work. How does sending them back to work after they've recovered prove a lack of seriousness in looking for evidence? That's a non-sequitur.

I have no idea if they still receive care or not. Some of them aren't happy with the way they have been treated by the government, but that is irrelevant. What is supposed to be your point about them receiving care, evidence-wise?!
You don't seem to get the point at all, and I think that you deliberately don't get it:
Many of those people with symptoms were dismissed because nothing was wrong with them, and so they were no longer interesting, victims of nothing but mass hysteria as they were. When you sift through a whole bunch of people with symptoms and eliminate those who have symptoms even though nothing is wrong with them from your study, the ones that are left aren't really representative of anything, least of all of an attack unless you find something akin to bullet holes and preferably also to the smoking gun they came from.

 

[dann]

Some agencies have put out a call in recent months for personnel to report any symptoms that might correspond with “Havana syndrome,” which one official said may have led to more reporting of cases rather than an increase of actual incidents.
Biden team looking for patterns in investigation of ‘Havana syndrome’ cases (News&Observer, May 7, 2021)

This initiative will encourage more people to think of whatever kind of symptoms they may have had as the 'Havana syndrome': sleeplessness, headaches, crickets ...

 

[dann]

And maybe we should add two-year-olds crying to the list of symptoms of the syndrome. Anything goes, it seems:

In one 2019 case, an officer who was serving overseas says he had severe nausea and headaches after pulling into an intersection, and his 2-year-old son who was in the backseat started crying. After the officer left the intersection, he felt better and his son stopped crying.
What Is 'Havana Syndrome'? More Than 100 US Personnel Sickened By Mysterious Illness (Health, May 19, 2021)

 

[Checkmite]

Exactly! At first, we only had the descriptions of people's symptoms and their alleged experiences of the alleged attack. When the cricket recording was released by AP, people in this thread started analyzing it and found that the frequency of the recorded sound was similar to that of recordings of crickets.

Exactly; and ever since then, your answer to the entire situation, all the cases, whether they heard noise or not, whether they happened in Havana or not, is "they all happened because one guy heard crickets!", a happenstance event which then became the impetus for a super-top-secret US government project to create and promote a memetic illness and infect its diplomatic corps with said illness in order to provide a pretext to reduce embassy staff somewhat in Cuba.

Your memory is extremely bad. Not in general, I guess, but due to your bias: You remember what you want to remember and make your memories fit your bias. If future, I recommend that you spend a little more time looking at what actually happened in this thread. The truth of the matter is that the researchers analyzing the recording and coming up with the explanation that it was the sound of crickets, modulated by being reflected off of surfaces, a condition that they were able to reproduce, that happened much later than the consensus reached by most participants in this thread. And I had very little to do with that because my knowledge of acoustics is not exactly extensive.
And it was more than one scientist, by the way.

I'm getting fed up with your "I think" argument. In spite of what you think, it was more than one person. They said so.

Nah. Somebody said that some of them did, waffled about it, and ended up only directly quoting ONE person. Not too definitive.

But ever since that analysis was released, with you it's basically been "that's what they all heard, and the only thing they all heard", because one guy said "that's the sound" after the AP played a recording of the reported sound to him several months after the fact.

Again your bias is the only argument, and you make up a narrative to go along with it:
They didn't later ask "did you hear anything like this"? Or 'is this sound familiar to you?' You are making yourself dumber than I think you are. It was obvious that the recording would be played to them in the context of the investigation of the alleged attacks.

I don't think that's "obvious" at all. The actual chain of events is, one person several months after the alleged "attacks" released a recording to the AP who published it on the internet, after taking it to some (anonymous) sources who were allegedly among the ostensible "victims" and asking them if that was the sound they had heard, with only one providing a quotable response apparently. Then some scientists independently studied the AP-published sound clip and released an analysis that it sounded very similar to a certain species of cricket.

Yes, we do know, but your memory of the many things we have discussed in this very long thread is not very good. Agent Zero was the one who got the story started, not only among U.S. Americans. He was also the one who told the Canadians about the alleged attacks.

I don't blame "some kind of nefarious US government plot." I just explained it to you a few posts ago: CIA agent Zero got the whole thing started, others joined in, and the US government used the story to cut back on diplomatic relations with Cuba. That this contributed to spreading the mass psychogenic illness to U.S. spies and agents and security officials all over the world, and now even on the White House lawn, was a side effect of the lie. Not surprising or unpredictable but also not deliberate.

Exactly. You think it was a "lie"; i.e., the US government nefariously maintaining that its diplomats absolutely definitely were ATTACKED! by some kind of enemy ray-gun, positively knowing all the while that that is in fact absolutely definitely not true and it was in fact just one guy being attacked by annoying cricket-song, in order to justify partially reducing Havana embassy staff. They did this because Trump hates Cuba because he's Trump, which makes sense, but also per recent developments the Biden Administration is 100% on-board with maintaining this lie because he hates Cuba too I guess.

Except that this is not the case. Some people probably began to experience 'symptoms' the moment they were told about the 'attacks'. Others, probably in particular the ones who were later analyzed as having actual physiological trauma caused by whatever, may have had symptoms of one kind or another for months before they heard the story that gave them a framework for reinterpreting those symptoms.

You can't start a rebuttal with something strong like "that's not true" when the next sentence starts with something like "what probably happened..."; especially not in a thread where one of your previous complaints was "...your bias is the only argument, and you make up a narrative to go along with it". Talk to the mirror, my friend.

If there's any actual value this thread has, it has been to introduce me to your admirable creative-writing skills. Any simple prompt and you're off to the races, building whole entire worlds like a typographical Bob Ross.

No, you don't have to remind me. Trump is antagonistic to anybody who doesn't agree with his current intentions. In the case of the CIA agents and their stories about sonic attacks, you haven't heard him utter the slightest bit of mistrust of those agents. Then or now. They served his purpose, so he was on their side. Their story was to be believed not doubted.

Well except for that whole part about how only Trump's own statements are the only place you'll find the government positively contending there were attacks at all, while from day one the actual intelligence and State officials have been releasing waffling statements along the lines of "Well, it COULD have been an attack....but it also might not have been? Or some might have been attacks and others not? We don't know. They all have different symptoms. It could be a bunch of different things. It's so weird! We need to study this more."

I am talking about other embassy workers being well-aware that their co-workers were caught up in a wave of hysteria. Some of them were calmed down by their Cuban janitors telling them that the sound they heard was nothing but crickets.
You need to go through this thread again because this has also been mentioned, more than once, with links to the sources.

I've looked for these multiple "links" you've mentioned but I haven't found anything in my thread-skimming. It sounds made up, but if you want to take a crack at surfacing these links again I will give them a look and tell you what I think.

It is grotesque that you accuse me of confabulation.

LOL no it isn't "grotesque", come on. You've been assailing me practically every other post with insinuations that I'm deliberately lying about this or that, like not remembering some link you say you posted twenty years ago or something in this ancient damned thread, and haven't gone all "lo, what calumniation!" over it.

No, the affected people obviously didn't think they were hearing crickets. They either came down with a bad case of mass psychogenic illness, or they had had symptoms for a while, which they now interpreted in the context of the new narrative: sonic attacks!

The new "narrative" spread by the nefarious government memetic plot?

You don't seem to get the point at all, and I think that you deliberately don't get it:

See what I mean?

But 'pon my word, thou slanderous rapscallion!

Many of those people with symptoms were dismissed because nothing was wrong with them, and so they were no longer interesting, victims of nothing but mass hysteria as they were. When you sift through a whole bunch of people with symptoms and eliminate those who have symptoms even though nothing is wrong with them from your study, the ones that are left aren't really representative of anything, least of all of an attack unless you find something akin to bullet holes and preferably also to the smoking gun they came from.

I think again you're overgeneralizing here; but even so: when you eliminate the ones that "nothing is wrong with", you're still left with people that something is wrong with, and you have to find out what that thing is, whether "that thing" is an "ATTACK!" or something completely different.

Because - get this - what if.....WHAT IF! those handful of people who have brain injuries really were "attacked", and WHAT IF their actual attacks are what set off the wave of sympathetic MPI?

 

[dann]

Exactly; and ever since then, your answer to the entire situation, all the cases, whether they heard noise or not, whether they happened in Havana or not, is "they all happened because one guy heard crickets!", a happenstance event which then became the impetus for a super-top-secret US government project to create and promote a memetic illness and infect its diplomatic corps with said illness in order to provide a pretext to reduce embassy staff somewhat in Cuba.

I am fed up with your hyperboles and lies. You are the one who now reduces the many people who heard crickets and believed that they were the victims of a sonic attack it to one guy only! There always were several. That is the whole point of calling the first one Patient Zero.
And the embassy staff wasn't merely 'reduced somewhat':

The State Department announced Friday it will permanently maintain a skeletal staff at the U.S. embassy in Cuba citing the “health attacks” on its personnel that have baffled experts to this day.
(...)
The downsizing of the embassy staff along with a travel warning have had significant effects on Cuba's economy and for its citizens. With fewer employees on hand, the U.S. Embassy in Havana halted visa processing, forcing Cubans who wish to visit the United States to seek visas through U.S. embassies in other countries. The U.S. is also expected to fall far short of granting the 20,000 immigrant visas to Cubans that have been allotted annually for decades.
U.S. decision to permanently reduce Cuba embassy staff draws swift reaction (NBC News, March 2, 2018)

Nah. Somebody said that some of them did, waffled about it, and ended up only directly quoting ONE person. Not too definitive.

But ever since that analysis was released, with you it's basically been "that's what they all heard, and the only thing they all heard", because one guy said "that's the sound" after the AP played a recording of the reported sound to him several months after the fact.

So if 'somebody' quoted only one person, this means that it happened to only one person. Yeah, right! Instead of repeating your lies, it's high time you come up with quotations that document your claims! Where are they? Where did I say that "that's what they all heard, and the only thing they all heard""? What's the point of your quotation marks?! Link and quotation! And a quotation where only one guy said "that's the sound." Link and quotation!

I don't have the time to deal with the rest of your story for now. I'll be back.