You cannot legislate that a business must not fire someone for a reason relevant to the job. Forstater was working for a think tank. Having publicly accessible discussions of a belief is within the job description of a think tank. If she did it contrary to her employer's guidelines, it's fair that she loses her job.
[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)
- Thread starter Emily's Cat
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You cannot legislate that a business must not fire someone for a reason relevant to the job. Forstater was working for a think tank. Having publicly accessible discussions of a belief is within the job description of a think tank. If she did it contrary to her employer's guidelines, it's fair that she loses her job.
I'm not aware that anyone has claimed transwomen are more likely than other males to commit acts of sexual violence. From available evidence it seems that they are not statistically different from other males in this respect. They are of course very different statistically from females as this is an area where there are very substantial sex differences.
Actually I might be wrong as the paper I linked to does seem to show that transwomen prisoners are substantially more likely to be convicted of sexual offences compared to other natal male prisoners (58.9% of transwomen in prison were sex offenders compared to 16.8% of men - the 2020 MoJ data). I'm not sure exactly how comparable the offences are or how this can be explained in relation to potential confounds. There are also suggestions that some prisoners fake trans identification, including because this makes it easier to commit sexual offences.
'The trust’s review delivered its report in February 2019. Initially, Bell was not allowed to see it. He was then given 30 minutes to read its 70 pages (it was later leaked to him in full). “There was still no data. It mentioned intimidation, but no action was [to be] taken. However, it did acknowledge the inappropriate involvement of trans ideology groups in the work of the service". '
What a surprise.
Marcus Evans, who resigned as Governor at the Tavistock after Bell's report came out, makes similar comments regarding political interference in clinical practice.
'Clinicians and patients need a service that is independent and protected from intrusions by pressure groups to force a rigid ‘one size fits all’ affirmative approach to gender dysphoria. NHS gender identity services have been functioning as if acting outside the ordinary requirement of good medical and psychiatric practice. The accusation of transphobia serves to shut down thoughtful enquiry and has been remarkably successful. As a result, the very thing that is most needed to protect children from harm is lost.'
Well, apparently you can. Protections exist. The question in this case is whether they apply to what she did.
Manger Douse
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Would this be compared with females or with males?
Sweden Ends the Use of Puberty Blockers for < 16: New policy statement from the Karolinska Hospital
'WPATH has long positioned itself as the world authority in transgender health. However, in recent months, several countries’ health authorities have conducted their own reviews of the evidence and found the evidence insufficient to justify early medical interventions promoted by WPATH’s guidelines'
'WPATH has long positioned itself as the world authority in transgender health. However, in recent months, several countries’ health authorities have conducted their own reviews of the evidence and found the evidence insufficient to justify early medical interventions promoted by WPATH’s guidelines'
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
I wish there was more reported.
Yes, but which sort of prison will "she" do her time at? A women's prison or a men's prison?
Also, is it official, as in she has a gender recognition certificate?
What is the current policy in the UK for this sort of case?
(By the way, Googling for more information, I came across this news item: Gender recognition certificate cost cut to £5. It was formerly £140.)
If he's actively seeking to put his penis into someone's vagina, then his penis is part of his identity.
That could be just for show, and then they're transferred somewhere else. The other day, I saw a show about planes that transfer prisoners to random top-secret locations every so often, to make sure no one knows where they are.
Louden Wilde
Muse
No. The contention by trans-activists is that TW are less of a threat to females than other males. I have not seen any data that would support that hypothesis.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Interestingly, it seems that most of the people who do go through with full surgeries also defend female rights, and tend to acknowledge that they are "living as a woman" rather than having been magically transformed into a woman. The same thing holds true for fully surgically transitioned transmen as well.
It's a schism within the trans community. Those who have gone through full transition tend to believe that gender dysphoria is a requirement to be transgender, and that it should include a considerable amount of counseling and therapy before surgery. They also tend to believe that sex is immutable and binary, and that they have not *actually* changed sex, and are not *actually* the same as the people who are of the opposite sex. And they also tend to be against transgender people who aren't surgically altered having unfettered access to female spaces, and oppose transwomen participating in female sports.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Emily's Cat
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In terms of sports, sure. In terms of living a happy life, not so much. Males on puberty blockers for an extended period of time face the same reduction in bone density, the same increased health risks etc. They also face sterility and loss of sexual function. Because their testes are prevented from maturing, they don't begin producing sperm, and their penis doesn't elongate. This leaves them unable to achieve orgasm. Even if they stop taking those blockers, if too much time has passed, they won't grow a longer penis or begin producing viable sperm. Even taking exogenous testosterone won't make that happen once the natural pubertal window has closed.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
I've been witholding a decision with respect to transwomen having a higher likelihood to commit sexual offenses. I don't have clear enough information to make an assessment of how much of that is an innate tendency versus external factors.
It's been suggested that AGP transwomen have a higher correlation than average with other types of sexual paraphilias too, which might suggest that there is an innate tendency toward unacceptable sexual behavior.
On the other hand, it's also been suggested that both AGP and HSTS transwomen have a materially higher likelihood to have experienced sexual abuse and trauma as a child, and we know that early childhood traumas can frequently lead the person to follow the same offending patterns as an adult.
There's also the possibility that because transwomen stand out (most don't pass as women very well), they may be more likely to be reported, more likely to be given less grace by arresting officers, and be convicted. Similar to the dynamic that occurs with black men in the US.
Because there are so many unexplored externalities, I'm content to stick with "transwomen offend at the same rate as other males", and not really go beyond that.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
That should carry some weight. Isn't Sweden usually referenced as sort of best in class for transgender care and acceptance?
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Remains to be seen.
I do not believe so.
Good question. The legal policy in the UK is to grant recognition to those who have an official GRC, and I believe that because they are legally classed as the opposite sex, they are placed in the female ward. But over the past few years, many of the prisons have been taking a "self-declaration" approach all on their own. The multiple cases of female prisoners being raped by the penises of transwomen inmates have all involved self-declaration without a GRC.
Some of that is due to "institutional capture" by lobbying groups - particularly Stonewall UK. A huge number of government entities are Stonewall "Diversity Champions", which means they meet Stonewall's requirements for being "trans supportive"... even though in several cases that's in contradiction to the legal protections granted female citizens.
Aber or Rolfe can probably speak to that better than I can. I've gleaned some of it by way of several UK women's organizations, but I'm across a large body of water, so my knowledge is very indirect.
Yep. That was pretty much the only element of the reform that made it through. And to be honest, I think that's fine. I don't think that a filing fee should be a barrier to a legal sex change, provided that the appropriate diagnosis and therapy has occurred and that sex change is deemed by the treating clinicians to be the course of treatment most likely to be effective.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Good article on Quillette about gender dysphoria in kids, with a comparison between behavioral patterns among males and females. Also includes a good bit of focus on parents and the challenges they face.
It's kind of wandering overall, but still a good read, about 5 min in length. Terrible title though. The title doesn't really relate to the content much at all... so just ignore that bit and move on.
https://quillette.com/2021/05/04/gaslighting-the-concerned-parents-of-trans-children-a-psychotherapists-view/
A couple of passages I found noteworthy:
It's kind of wandering overall, but still a good read, about 5 min in length. Terrible title though. The title doesn't really relate to the content much at all... so just ignore that bit and move on.
https://quillette.com/2021/05/04/gaslighting-the-concerned-parents-of-trans-children-a-psychotherapists-view/
A couple of passages I found noteworthy:
Not sure about that, but something interesting has happened in Sweden. It had the same massive explosion in referrals for gender dysphoria as other Western countries, starting around 2011-12, involving mainly adolescent females and coinciding with the promotion of gender identity through social media. Then around 2018-19 the climate shifted and there was more open and critical discussion. A documentary called 'Trans Train' aired which discussed the issue of gender dysphoria in a more critical way, including lack of research surrounding causes of gender dysphoria and treatments.
Following this referrals to gender clinics dropped by 65% falling most sharply in 2019 and as far as I know haven't recovered, although I can't find more recent data atm.
You can see the graph showing the dramatic turnaround on this page.
The documentary 'Trans train' is available on YouTube with English subtitles.
Matthew Best
Penultimate Amazing
In other words, they're also less likely to commit rape. Even better!
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