[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

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The EHRC position is that "men cannot change into women" is a already protected belief under the law, if held for religious reasons - see extracts from their argument:


1) I'm not aware of Forstater ever trying to claim that it's her religious faith which is informing her position on transgender identity;

2) Once again, you're not separating sex from gender. They're two different things. And that's enshrined in England & Wales law. Forstater did not say "Males cannot change into females". She said "Men cannot change into women". The former is to do with biological sex; the latter (the thing Forstater wrote) is to do with gender identity. E&W law provides for protection (on a narrow selection of grounds, including religious belief) for anyone positing the immutability of biological sex, but that protection has nothing to do with what Forstater wrote.
 
Caitlyn Jenner is losing favor with a lot of trans rights activists. Not only did she recently say that transgirls shouldn't be allowed in girls' sports, but given an opportunity to retract, she didn't. Worse yet, she's apparently a Republican.

Some folks in the LGBTIQ+ and supporting groups find that to be unacceptable.
 
What exactly do you think "state-sanctioned prejudice" consists of? Not letting trans girls compete in athletics against cis girls?

Sorry, but that's no more inherently prejudicial than not letting cis boys compete against cis girls. If you segregate sports at all, then you necessarily exclude some people from competing against other people. Strangely enough, no one is really arguing to do away with all segregation. They just want to be on a specific side of the divide.

What the laws are "inherently" is beside the point. The point is that they're proposed with an express intent to intrude in the culture of private citizens.

And it's not at all clear that most arguers want there to remain a divide to be on a specific side of.
 
The actions of a trans woman have nothing to do with a thread about trans women? How so?

(I agree about your example - it seems to have nothing to do with this thread.)

I’d also like an answer to this. All through this thread has been the contention that transwomen (even self identified) are no threat to ciswomen. We have a clear, documented, proven example and irs being dismissed as irrelevant???
 
1) I'm not aware of Forstater ever trying to claim that it's her religious faith which is informing her position on transgender identity;

2) Once again, you're not separating sex from gender. They're two different things. And that's enshrined in England & Wales law. Forstater did not say "Males cannot change into females". She said "Men cannot change into women". The former is to do with biological sex; the latter (the thing Forstater wrote) is to do with gender identity. E&W law provides for protection (on a narrow selection of grounds, including religious belief) for anyone positing the immutability of biological sex, but that protection has nothing to do with what Forstater wrote.

You cannot legislate that someone must care about a societal/cultural/mental distinction which is sometimes binary and sometimes fluid and which has a non-circular definition linked to biology in the case of cisgendered people but a circular definition in the case of transgendered people and which doesn't exist for cisgendered people as anything other than societal expectations/stereotypes but isn't that for transgendered people, because then masculine ciswomen would be men, so it is something different that cannot be experienced by cisgendered people because they don't feel a disconnect between their mental and physical conception of themselves, but the disconnect isn't only physical because living as a woman is supposed to mean something more in the case of transgendered people even though this just brings us back to societal expectations and stereotypes that many women find insulting.
 
Rumors are the feds are getting ready to litigate the rash of anti-trans state laws popping up around the country.

The Biden administration is preparing to directly confront the rash of anti-LGBT, and specifically anti-trans bills proliferating in state legislatures, according to the Human Rights Campaign (HRC), the country’s leading LGBTQ advocacy organization.

Separately, the Department of Justice has told The Daily Beast it will “fully enforce our civil rights statutes to protect transgender individuals,” giving hope to campaigners that the DOJ is preparing to challenge in the courts the legality of bills that have been introduced—and some passed—in a number of states, outlawing transgender youth’s access to health care and sports.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/biden-white-house-is-preparing-to-confront-states-on-anti-trans-bills?via=twitter_page
 
It will be tricky. For sports, you'd want a transition that erased the tendencies of earlier male development. For that matter, if you want to be a functional female (i.e. fertile) you'd have to do the same. From my POV, it's going to be a lot easier to have us stay healthy for >100 years than it is to legit switch sexes.

I think it's important that kids who are thinking of transitioning know they won't actually be the other sex. And that even delaying puberty may have negative consequences - a recent analysis
On the topic of "delaying" puberty, I am frequently frustrated by how this is presented in the media and by advocates of blockers.

There's a lot of messaging that it's "safe and reversible"... and when that's challenges, the challenge tends to be "it's not known we haven't studied it long enough".

And while that's technically true... we actually *do* know of some negative side effects of puberty not occurring in its normal time. 'Puberty' isn't a single hormonal exposure, even though hormones play a large part in that event. There are multiple systems that are affected by puberty, and are governed by the pituitary gland. The puberty blockers being used work by directly affecting the pituitary gland, and the hormone precursors that it creates. For post-pubertal people, the pituitary's only real role is to maintain the levels of sexual hormones in our bodies for proper reproductive function. It also has a role in moderating blood pressure, but it does so working in tandem with other systems.

During puberty, however, the pituitary gland governs several other processes: accretion of bone density, growth spurts, closure of growth plates, among others. It also prompts cognitive development that is associated with hormone exposure, a necessary step in mental maturation.

If puberty doesn't occur, it has long-term effects. It reduces cognitive ability, and it locks the person into a "pre-pubescent" state of emotional control. Bones stay weak and porous. Growth plates don't close properly. Because a major developmental step is omitted, there are other secondary effects as well - increased risk of stroke and heart attack being some of those.

These aren't unknown. We already know that there are long-term negative effects from puberty being interrupted or omitted. We know this, because there are a handful of developmental disorders that halt or impede puberty. My god-daughter has Kallmann Syndrome, which is one of those disorders.

One of the biggest problems is that, for all intents, puberty is on a timer. If you halt the development of normal pubertal processes... you don't stop the clock. The timer keeps going. If you delay those pubertal processes, you use up some of that time. When you start puberty later, the direct hormone exposure will prompt the development of secondary sexual characteristics (assuming you're getting the type of hormone that your body needs, eg females get estrogen and progesterone, males get testosterone). But the *other* processes - cognitive, height, bone density, etc. Those don't kick off as if it's a fresh start. The delay has already used up part of their time limit.

We already know that these negative outcomes occur if puberty is interrupted or omitted. It's not a mystery. The puberty blockers being used off label for transgender kids act directly on the pituitary. Why on earth would we think that this direct interruption of the pubertal process would be magically immune from the negative affects that we're already aware of?


*** Caveat: This is not my area of expertise, so this is necessarily a layperson's explanation of the process. While some details may be misstated, I believe the overall gist is correct... but again, I'm a layperson.
 
I’d also like an answer to this. All through this thread has been the contention that transwomen (even self identified) are no threat to ciswomen. We have a clear, documented, proven example and irs being dismissed as irrelevant???

To be fair, we've had multiple clear, documented, proven examples, and they've all been dismissed as irrelevant too.
 
1) I'm not aware of Forstater ever trying to claim that it's her religious faith which is informing her position on transgender identity;

2) Once again, you're not separating sex from gender.

I refer you to parts of the EHRC argument to the court that I posted and linked to earlier:

The EJ had, correctly, identified the Claimant’s stated belief as “sex is immutable.”

There can be no justifiable basis in law for distinguishing between religious or philosophical belief (that is, to suggest one is more worthy than another), as s.10 makes clear

Where do you disagree with their argument?
 
Caitlyn Jenner is losing favor with a lot of trans rights activists. Not only did she recently say that transgirls shouldn't be allowed in girls' sports, but given an opportunity to retract, she didn't. Worse yet, she's apparently a Republican.

Some folks in the LGBTIQ+ and supporting groups find that to be unacceptable.
When Caitlyn transitioned it seemed a little strange, a star athlete, later in life. But then she had the full surgery, something that really shows commitment, I can respect that. This impresses me even more, that she is willing to stand up for females rights, against what must be a lot of pressure.
 
If Transwomen are over-represented in cases of sexual violence as seems to be the case then its very relevant to allowing them access to protected womens spaces

The data I've seen suggest they are not when you normalize for being sex workers, which puts one at high risk for sexual violence. Of course, in absolute numbers, the amount of sexual violence directed at females dwarves that against transwomen due to their far greater numbers.

To me it would make more sense to give TW separate wings at male prisons. Otherwise, I suspect we'll see more males self-IDing as trans and demanding to go to women's prisons. There's been some of that already documented earlier in the thread(s).
 
I’d also like an answer to this. All through this thread has been the contention that transwomen (even self identified) are no threat to ciswomen. We have a clear, documented, proven example and irs being dismissed as irrelevant???

There are criminals in every group of people, and for centuries people of various groups have used cases of crimes as an excuse to oppress other groups. If it takes only one crime to make a group of people a threat, then everyone is a threat to everyone else.

The contention is that transwomen are no more of a risk than other people. That can't be challenged by one example, or even a handful of examples. It can only be challenged by a rigorous statistical study.
 
One of the biggest problems is that, for all intents, puberty is on a timer. If you halt the development of normal pubertal processes... you don't stop the clock. The timer keeps going. If you delay those pubertal processes, you use up some of that time. When you start puberty later, the direct hormone exposure will prompt the development of secondary sexual characteristics (assuming you're getting the type of hormone that your body needs, eg females get estrogen and progesterone, males get testosterone). But the *other* processes - cognitive, height, bone density, etc. Those don't kick off as if it's a fresh start. The delay has already used up part of their time limit.

But that means that a male on puberty blockers will not develop the traits that give males an advantage over females. Isn't that a good thing?
 
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