[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

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Emily's Cat said:
In what way are they not typical males?

Aside from internal gender identity, I don't see that there's any evidence or suggestion that transwomen are materially different from other males in terms of biology or performance, at least prior to hormone therapy.
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My guess is that the average transwoman is less athletic and smaller than the average cismale. I don't have any data to verify that, but I don't think there are many Bruce Jenners in the world.


However, in my opinion, it's not important. The fact that Rachel McKinnon or Fallon Fox were not typical transwomen means absolutely nothing. Their competition was competing against them, not against a typical transwoman. Rachel McKinnon was a moderately athletic but by no means elite male athlete. The fact that a typical transwoman would be less athletic is of no consequence to the question of whether Rachel McKinnon ought to be competing against females in elite competition. Should we say that it's ok to have a McKinnon or a Terry Miller compete against females because there are lots of other transwomen in the world that would lose to a greater number of females?
 
Meadmaker said:
My guess is that the average transwoman is less athletic and smaller than the average cismale. I don't have any data to verify that, but I don't think there are many Bruce Jenners in the world.
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I think this is an assumption made to justify a premise. I think this is a reflection of a deep-seated societal expectation of masculinity and femininity, and the assumption that a person in today's world who identifies as a woman must be more feminine than the average male.

I don't think this is a good assumption. Under the ideology of gender identity as currently pushed, I don't think this assumption would hold up at all.
 
I usually don't post YouTube videos, and I'm usually not fond of videos posted without a synopsis... but I'm going to make an exception.

This is a very long four-part documentary series, made by an Indian woman. It covers a lot of topics regarding gender dysphoria, the approach being taken by the medical community, and the impact on peoples lives. It's a very compassionately and reasonably presented body of work. There's no hate in it, there's no divisiveness. It's well worth watching.

I encourage those of you on the trans-activist side to watch it, as I think it presents a good viewpoint on some of the concerns, without being antagonistic, and without being confrontational.

I also encourage those on the gender critical side to watch it. I think it really captures an element of care and compassion that I think we can sometimes lose sight of.

Dysphoric: Fleeing womanhood like a house on fire
 
Emily's Cat said:
Good!
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IMO only one outcomes is possible: the appeal court throws out the appeal, and upholds the original tribunal's ruling that making statements such as "men cannot change into women"* is effectively incompatible with human dignity and fundamental rights of others, and that therefore Forstater's stated beliefs are not protected** under the 2010 Equality Act.

Good!


* In addition to other tweets/writings including the likes of:

"(gender-fluid banker Philip/Pips) Bunce is a white man who likes to dress in women’s clothes";

"I think that male people are not women";

"women means "adult human female"";

"In reality (transwoman Gregor) Murray is a man. It is Murray’s right to believe that Murray is not a man, but Murray cannot compel others to believe this";

"I reserve the right to use the pronouns “he” and “him” to refer to male
people (including transwomen)";


** Other examples of beliefs which are not protected under the 2010 Equality Act would include the likes of a belief that homosexuality is a mental delusion, or that black people are not the intellectual equal of white people...
 
Emily's Cat said:
Good!
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Link to EHRC submission

https://legal.equalityhumanrights.com/en/case/upholding-right-freedom-religion-or-belief

Why we were involved
The Equality Act 2010 protects people from discrimination because of religious or philosophical beliefs, at work and in other areas of life. This can include highly controversial or offensive beliefs but does not include extreme beliefs such as a belief in racial superiority.

We believe that it is important that our courts and tribunals continue to robustly protect freedom of religion or belief. We think that a ‘gender critical’ belief, that sex is biological and can’t be changed, is a philosophical belief which is protected under the Equality Act religion or belief protections.

We are concerned that a contrary ruling by the Employment Appeal Tribunal could leave people unprotected against discrimination and harassment because they hold controversial beliefs.

The fact that a belief is protected does not mean that comments made based on such beliefs are protected from consequences. We intervened to help clarify what constitutes a protected belief. How a belief is expressed is a separate matter.
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Emily's Cat said:
I usually don't post YouTube videos, and I'm usually not fond of videos posted without a synopsis... but I'm going to make an exception.

This is a very long four-part documentary series, made by an Indian woman. It covers a lot of topics regarding gender dysphoria, the approach being taken by the medical community, and the impact on peoples lives. It's a very compassionately and reasonably presented body of work. There's no hate in it, there's no divisiveness. It's well worth watching.

I encourage those of you on the trans-activist side to watch it, as I think it presents a good viewpoint on some of the concerns, without being antagonistic, and without being confrontational.

I also encourage those on the gender critical side to watch it. I think it really captures an element of care and compassion that I think we can sometimes lose sight of.

Dysphoric: Fleeing womanhood like a house on fire
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Interesting. I'll try to watch, and see how far I get into it. Meanwhile, here is the synopsis from the link:

‘Dysphoric’ is a four-part documentary series on the rise of Gender Identity Ideology, its effects on women and girls - especially in developing countries.

Synopsis:
In this dystopian world where misogyny is rampant, and womanhood is commodified, being female comes at a cost. Corporates capitalise on women's bodies blurring the lines of biological sex, and profiting from the emperically untested pseudo-science of queer theory. This gaslighting is aided by the complicity of media, academia, legal and the political world. It is no surprise that young girls are fleeing womanhood like a house on fire.
The past decade has seen a steep rise in the number of young girls seeking to transition by undergoing life threatening, irreversible procedures. ‘Dysphoric’ is a four-part documentary series on the rise of Gender Identity Ideology, its effects on women and girls - especially in developing countries.
The film explores gender transition, the permanent medical side-effects of hormones and surgeries, the propaganda by 'woke' corporations that glorifies thousands of stereotypical gender presentations coalesced as fashion, a surge in pronoun policing; language hijacking that calls women ‘menstruators’, and the many hurdles women face while trying to question this modern-day misogyny. The film amplifies the voices of detransitioners, clinicians, psychiatrists, sociologists, feminists, academics and concerned citizens.
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Just from the synopsis I think I can see pretty clearly which point of view it comes from. But I'll give it a chance.

Now here is something I found on CNN. The actor Elliot (née Ellen) Page did an interview with Oprah:

Elliot Page tells Oprah that transition surgery was 'life-saving'

Elliot Page has said that transition surgery was "life-saving" and led him to feel comfortable in his body for the first time, during an interview with Oprah Winfrey.

The critically acclaimed actor spoke with Winfrey on Apple TV+ for his first interview since announcing that he is transgender.
Discussing his surgery, Page said: "I want people to know that not only has it been life changing for me, I do believe it is life-saving and it's the case for so many people."
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I've always been suspicious of the argument that such surgery is literally "live-saving" (as opposed to elective). It feels like a kind of emotional extortion to me. The implication being that, since it is supposedly "live-saving" it is therefore medically necessary and therefore taxpayers should be expected to pay for it. (And legally mandating that private healthcare insurers cover it amounts to essentially the same thing, as it raises premiums for everyone.)
 
LondonJohn said:
IMO only one outcomes is possible: the appeal court throws out the appeal, and upholds the original tribunal's ruling that making statements such as "men cannot change into women"* is effectively incompatible with human dignity and fundamental rights of others, and that therefore Forstater's stated beliefs are not protected** under the 2010 Equality Act.
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The EHRC position is that "men cannot change into women" is a already protected belief under the law, if held for religious reasons - see extracts from their argument:

The effect of this was that the EJ lost sight of his task. The EJ had, correctly, identified the Claimant’s stated belief as “sex is immutable.” He also recognised that the Claimant’s “approach … is largely that currently adopted by the law, which still treats sex as binary as defined on a birth certificate” (§83). This is so (Corbett v Corbett [1971] P83 AB/119; Elan -Cane v Secretary of State for the Home Department [2018] 1WLR 5119 AB/1541). Further, the EA 2010 itself recognises that a religious belief that sex is immutable is a protected belief. Thus, Sch 3, para 24 provides that it is not unlawful gender reassignment discrimination for a person approving or solemnising a marriage under religious rites to refuse to do so if they believe that a person’s gender has been acquired under a Gender Recognition Certificate (corresponding provision is made in s.5B of the Marriage Act 1949); that is, because they hold a religious belief that sex is immutable. There can be no justifiable basis in law for distinguishing between religious or philosophical belief (that is, to suggest one is more worthy than another), as s.10 makes clear
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Emily's Cat said:
I think this is an assumption made to justify a premise. I think this is a reflection of a deep-seated societal expectation of masculinity and femininity, and the assumption that a person in today's world who identifies as a woman must be more feminine than the average male.

I don't think this is a good assumption. Under the ideology of gender identity as currently pushed, I don't think this assumption would hold up at all.
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I would think of it more an an unconfirmed observation.

I think that if it were not the case, we would be seeing an awful lot more cases of males winning girls' sporting events.


I'm going to present some numbers I ran across a bit ago, because it connects indirectly to this topic.

There are approximately 115,000 high school seniors in the state of Michigan.
According to one article I read, 0.7% of people 18-24 identify as trans
gender. Assume for the moment that the high school seniors identify as transgender at the same rate. That would mean there were 805 transgender high school seniors in Michigan. The article had no information about prevalence of MtF vs. FtM transitioners. Lets' assume half. 4,02 males who identify as female.


I also compared scores of boys and girls on the Presidential Fitness Challenge. The score for the 100th percentile in 17 year old girls for the mile run was the same as the 90th percentile for boys. In other words, 10% of the boys could beat the highest score for girls. I'm going to assume some roundoff error and drop that to 9%. That would mean 36 males could beat the fastest female.

So, if they went out for track, the top 36 positions at the girls' state championships would be occupied by males.

Obviously, something is wrong with those numbers, because what I described isn't happening. We have talked a lot about Terry Miller and Andraya Yearwood because those two are the only high profile examples among high school students. We also have very few examples in professional, college, or Olympic competition. Those numbers I presented suggest that we ought to be seeing complete dominance of women's and girls' sports by transgenders. We aren't seeing that, except in isolated cases, so what's wrong with the numbers?

To address your issue, I think one of many things wrong with those numbers is that I don't think that transgirls are equally distributed throughout the male athletic ability spectrum. I think you would find that transgirls are generally in the lower 50% of male athletic ability, with very few in the top 10%, where they would dominate the females.

Now, for the broader picture, think about those numbers. Legislators, primarily from the GOP, have been sounding the alarm about the end of women's sports if transgirls are allowed to compete against females. If those numbers were anywhere near close to correct, those GOP legislators would be correct.

Fortunately, I think there are several things wrong with those numbers. I think the number of transgenders is much less than the 0.7% claimed. I think they had to, at the very least, throw a lot of Qs from LGBTIQ into the transgender pot in order to come up with a number that high. I think FtM is more common than MtF. Since many (I have no idea how many) 17 year old transgirls take hormones, that reduces the athletic ability somewhat among those that do. I think that transgirls generally start out with a lower distribution of athletic ability (i.e. transgirls are found less frequently among accomplished male athletes than among the general population of males). I think that among the transgirls who could win competitions against females, a fair number choose not to, for a variety of reasons.

So, for all those reasons, we are not seeing complete dominance by transgender male athletes in women's and girls' sports. But the numbers I described were enough to give me pause that I might indeed be underestimating the threat to girls' athletics. I think I would like to see some addressing of the issue from the TRA side. Right now one thing that keeps males out of girls' athletics are social stigmas about competing, or indeed about acknowledging trans identities. TRA's are trying to end those stigmas. What will be the effect if they are successful? Terry Miller and Rachel McKinnon might just be the tip of the iceberg. What sort of issues would we see if people felt more free to identify publicly as transgender, were not pressured into taking hormones if they didn't feel comfortable at that time in their lives, and did not feel constrained by social pressure to avoid competing against females?

In my previous arguments I've never really addressed it, because I never thought it was all that important. Selena Soule and Alanna Smith are individuals, not representatives of some class of people, and I think their concerns are legitimate even if there are very few people with similar circumstances, but I must admit if there were tens of thousands of people in similar circumstances (i.e. females losing against males in girls' athletic competitions) I think that would be influential to a lot of people. Based on the numbers of transgenders, it might actually be that this problem is bigger than I previously thought, and the people sounding the alarm might actually have a point.
 
Meadmaker said:
In my previous arguments I've never really addressed it, because I never thought it was all that important. Selena Soule and Alanna Smith are individuals, not representatives of some class of people, and I think their concerns are legitimate even if there are very few people with similar circumstances, but I must admit if there were tens of thousands of people in similar circumstances (i.e. females losing against males in girls' athletic competitions) I think that would be influential to a lot of people. Based on the numbers of transgenders, it might actually be that this problem is bigger than I previously thought, and the people sounding the alarm might actually have a point.
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All the more reason to get rid of state-sanctioned prejudice before that happens.
 
Long interview with the whistleblower at the Tavistock Clinic

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/may/02/tavistock-trust-whistleblower-david-bell-transgender-children-gids

When he appeared on Channel 4 News earlier this year, Bell was asked if he feared being on the wrong side of history. “I’ve often thought about that question,” he says. “It’s a good one. Psychiatry has a sad past. Homosexual men were given behavioural therapies and so on. But history isn’t always right. What matters is the truth. I hate the weaponisation of victimhood, the fact that the fear of being seen to be transphobic now overrides everything.” The current campaign to ban so-called gay conversion therapy is, he believes, likely to become a Trojan horse for trans activists who will use it to put pressure on any clinician who does not immediately affirm a young person’s statement about their identity, decrying this, too, as a form of “conversion”. For Bell, the prospect of not being able to talk openly about such things is a tyranny: just another form of repression. “This is about light and air,” he says. “It’s about free thinking, the kind that will result in better outcomes for all young people, whether transgender or not.”
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There is anger on both sides of the debate. But given his politics – Bell describes himself to me as a “Corbyn-supporting Jew” – he has been most shocked by the reluctance of the left to engage with the issues. “They think this is to do with being liberal, rather than with concerns about the care of children. Mermaids and Stonewall [the charities for trans children and LGBTQ+ rights] have made people afraid even of listening to another view.” It surprises him that the left is unwilling to consider the role played by big pharma. In the US, a journal that published a paper about the effect of puberty blockers on suicide risk recently had to disclose that one of its co-authors received a stipend from the manufacturer of another drug.
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It doesn't sound like he's a free thinker. It sounds like he's got some kind of political lens. It's scary that someone who makes such conspiratorial leaps is being entrusted to be a whistleblower for a children's hospital.
 
Matthew Best said:
Trans woman jailed for arranging sex with underage girls.
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Trans woman? I'd laugh if the story wasn't so disgusting.

Is there a better example anywhere of someone who is clearly a male pretending to be trans than the thing in that article?

The 5 o'clock shadow is worse than Homer Simpson's. Very feminine.

And see my sig.
 
Collin237 said:
All the more reason to get rid of state-sanctioned prejudice before that happens.
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What exactly do you think "state-sanctioned prejudice" consists of? Not letting trans girls compete in athletics against cis girls?

Sorry, but that's no more inherently prejudicial than not letting cis boys compete against cis girls. If you segregate sports at all, then you necessarily exclude some people from competing against other people. Strangely enough, no one is really arguing to do away with all segregation. They just want to be on a specific side of the divide.
 
Matthew Best said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-56861930

Trans woman jailed for arranging sex with underage girls.
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This is clearly behavior that is not consistent with being trans. A case like this doesn't just spring up. There must have been something wrong with them all along. For real, not anachronistically. If a reputable gender clinic had been available when they was young, they would never have been accepted as a girl.
 
Meadmaker said:
I would think of it more an an unconfirmed observation.

I think that if it were not the case, we would be seeing an awful lot more cases of males winning girls' sporting events.


I'm going to present some numbers I ran across a bit ago, because it connects indirectly to this topic.

There are approximately 115,000 high school seniors in the state of Michigan.
According to one article I read, 0.7% of people 18-24 identify as trans
gender. Assume for the moment that the high school seniors identify as transgender at the same rate. That would mean there were 805 transgender high school seniors in Michigan. The article had no information about prevalence of MtF vs. FtM transitioners. Lets' assume half. 4,02 males who identify as female.

I also compared scores of boys and girls on the Presidential Fitness Challenge. The score for the 100th percentile in 17 year old girls for the mile run was the same as the 90th percentile for boys. In other words, 10% of the boys could beat the highest score for girls. I'm going to assume some roundoff error and drop that to 9%. That would mean 36 males could beat the fastest female.

So, if they went out for track, the top 36 positions at the girls' state championships would be occupied by males.
Click to expand...

I think what you're missing up there is the proportion of people who participate in sports.

Your math essentially assumes that all transgirls participate in sports.

If, on the other hand, we assume that 10% of students participate in sports, then it would net out to 3 positions being occupied by males. If it's 5% participating in sports, it would be 1 to 2 males.

There's another underlying assumption going into this. AGG speculated that transgirls are somehow outside the normal range for boys performance. I don't think this is a merited assumption. I think that the males who are participating in sports are perhaps 10% of all males, and are not representative of the average male. But a transgirl could very well be close to the norm for males... and still end up being in the top quintile for female performance. Thus, they may not always win, but they've certainly got better odds than an average female would.
 
Belz... said:
I've no doubt that future medical tech would allow for a full transition. But we ain't there yet.
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It will be tricky. For sports, you'd want a transition that erased the tendencies of earlier male development. For that matter, if you want to be a functional female (i.e. fertile) you'd have to do the same. From my POV, it's going to be a lot easier to have us stay healthy for >100 years than it is to legit switch sexes.

I think it's important that kids who are thinking of transitioning know they won't actually be the other sex. And that even delaying puberty may have negative consequences - a recent analysis
 
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