The Biden Presidency

[bruto]

My recollection is that flavored cigarettes were already banned. Menthol got a pass which many consider to have been a mistake.

There's a difference between banning the sale and criminalizing the use. Nobody's saying you can't smoke 'em if you got 'em.

 

[portlandatheist]

If you ban something but don't criminalize it what's the point? Or indeed what are you even doing?

In what way can the government acting officially go "Don't do that, but if you do nothing will happen?"

That's not how it works. That's never how it works. The government doesn't give "polite successions" and if it does it shouldn't.

Don't you think there's a huge difference between not being able to buy hard drugs at a Seven Eleven vs. buying them illegally on the street and if you do get busted, the cops just take your stash and send you on your way without going to jail, without going to prison, and not having a felony on your record so you can get have a normal job, still being able to vote, and so on?

 

[xjx388]

What a stupid move, to ban a flavored version of a legal product. Adults enjoy menthol flavored cigarettes. Tobacco is legal.

Instead, institute harsher penalties for selling to kids.

I think it’s funny that no one is talking about banning flavored alcohol, which is also popular with teens, is also addictive and also causes health problems.

Just plain dumb.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Did you guys even look at why Biden wants the menthol cigarettes banned?

At least discuss the issues.

USA Today Opinion: With menthol cigarettes, Big Tobacco targets Black lives. Don't allow profiting from death.

... Even as kids then they could see differences in cigarette use by race.

We know now that this was no coincidence, but rather the results of Big Tobacco's efforts to target Black communities and hook Black children on their deadly and addictive menthol products.

Black neighborhoods have a disproportionate number of tobacco retailers with pervasive tobacco marketing, and in particular, more marketing of menthol products. The industry’s own documents reveal its history of launching these advertising campaigns. Even now, I can vividly recall the numerous billboards for cigarettes in my neighborhood. I could recreate the packaging colors, logos or mascots for each of the brands I'd see constantly, and I have never smoked a cigarette. ...

Among Black smokers 12-17 years old, 71.9% smoke menthol cigarettes. Menthol products are used disproportionately in communities of color — while nearly 85% of Black smokers and 47% of Hispanic smokers use menthol cigarettes, only 29% of white smokers do.

And

In 2009, the Food and Drug Administration banned flavored traditional cigarettes, but menthol was left out despite calls for the agency to do so as response to racism as a public health crisis. But this week, they have the opportunity to change that.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

And this is just crap: Reason Libertarian Extremism: A Ban on Menthol Cigarettes Will Lead to More Confrontations Between Black People and Police

No one is talking about criminalizing anything!!!!!!! Cops are not going to give a rip if anyone has menthol cigs. It's the manufacturing and marketing that is the target.

And I'd bet you will still be able to buy menthol cigs on reservations.

 

[theprestige]

Black people, being too stupid and venal to see to their own interests, need a white savior to protect them from the white devil.

I for one am relieved to learn that Joe Biden knows that the great scourge facing the nation today isn't a global pandemic. It isn't foreign interference in democratic elections. It's... Menthol cigarettes.

I guess the tobacco lobby is behind on its payments.

 

[smartcooky]

Black Young people are too stupid and venal inexperienced and naive to see to their own interests, need a white savior grown up to protect them from the white devil. evil tobacco marketers

FTFY

I for one am relieved to learn that Joe Biden knows that the great scourge facing the nation today isn't a global pandemic. It isn't foreign interference in democratic elections. It's... Menthol cigarettes.

I guess the tobacco lobby is behind on its payments.

Are you really implying that Biden is placing the importance of dealing with menthol cigarettes above dealing with the pandemic, really? Because it sure seems like you are.

For mine, any reasonable measure that makes it harder for Big Tobacco to hook young kids on their death-dealing products is a good thing, and stopping them from making their products more attractive to kids is a reasonable measure!

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

So, some opinions are let's not address it?

FDA Weighs Ban on Menthol Cigarettes, Which Disproportionately Addict — and Kill — Black Americans

However, some antismoking activists worry that momentum at the agency won’t be sufficient because the Biden administration does not yet have a permanent FDA commissioner. Janet Woodcock, who until recently ran the Center for Drug Evaluation and Research and has been on the FDA’s Nicotine Steering Committee, serves as acting commissioner.

Scott Gottlieb, who as FDA commissioner during the Trump administration in 2018 led the last failed effort to ban menthol, says the science about menthol cigarettes should outweigh any arguments about a ban targeting a specific community.

“The science was strong then and is even stronger now,” he said in an interview with The Washington Post. “Just because an addiction crisis disproportionately impacts one sector, it doesn’t mean that it’s racist to respond to that.”

{snip}

“I argue menthol is the ultimate candy flavoring that helps the poison go down easier,” said Phillip Gardiner, co-chair of the African American Tobacco Control Leadership Council and recently retired from the University of California Office of the President’s Tobacco-Related Disease Research Program. “It is by definition an anesthetic, allowing for deeper inhalation, and the more nicotine and toxins you take in, the more addicted you become.”...

These guys don't care one ******* bit (except how much money they can make) about what their marketing does:

The tobacco industry has sponsored African American-focused community and music events such as the Kool Jazz Festival, and Gardiner says, marketed menthol cigarettes specifically to African Americans. In February 1989, Reynolds debuted Uptown cigarettes to coincide with Black History Month; in 1995, Menthol X launched with images linked to Malcolm X; in 1997, Camel marketed a menthol “Smooth Joe Camel” in Black communities

We know this from the efforts to ban advertising to kids. Tobacco companies still get around that whenever they can. And you know why? Because they know full well that if they don't get kids smoking they will lose their whole customer base. Adults very rarely begin smoking.

And this is in Big Tobacco emails to each other. It's not just an hypothesis. And again, this doesn't have jack **** to do with criminalizing anything.

 

[smartcooky]

And this is in Big Tobacco emails to each other. It's not just an hypothesis. And again, this doesn't have jack **** to do with criminalizing anything.

Indeed.

In this country, we have managed to dramatically reduce the number of smokers in our communities from 30%+ of the population in the mid-1980s, to just 11% today, and that has been achieved through a number of government initiatives...

1. No tobacco product or company advertising allowed in any media.

2. No tobacco product or company advertising in shops, even ones selling those products. Instant fine $1000, additional transgressions lead to prosecution and fines up to $10000.

3. No tobacco product or company sponsorship allowed for any sports, sporting events, competitions, festivals or any other events of any kind.

4. Cigarettes and tobacco products must be hidden from view. Instant fine $1000, additional transgressions lead to prosecution and fines up to $10000.

5. Cigarettes and tobacco products must not be sold to persons under the age of 18, purchasers must provide ID. The Ministry of Health regularly uses bait purchasers to test if they will sell to under 18s. Instant fine $1000, additional transgressions lead to prosecution and fines up to $10000.

6. All workplaces, clubs, bars and restaurants are no smoking indoors.

7. Huge, punitive taxes on tobacco products, pushing the price of a pack of 20 to about $33.00

8. Large, graphic health warnings on packets.

And a whole lot more restrictions are in the pipeline for this year

9. All sellers of cigarettes and other tobacco products to be licenced

10. Restrict sales of smoked tobacco products to a limited number of specific store types (so no sales in corner dairies, pubs, bars, supermarkets, mass market stores or grocery stores) Sales will be pretty much limited to licensed tobacconists.

11. Force reduction of nicotine levels in smoked tobacco products to very low, in order to make it harder to become addicted.

12. Prohibit filters in smoked tobacco products.

13. Prohibit innovations aimed at increasing the appeal and addictiveness of smoked tobacco products.

If you're gonna all draconian, don't **** around with half-measures, go the full Monty!!

 

[llwyd]

So, we had a really important speech to the nation, really huge proposals going on - and this thread focuses, yes, on menthol cigarettes?

edit: is this one of these "issues" fabricated by the right wing media machine, are Hannity, Carlson et al spouting about this?

 

[Stacyhs]

FTFY

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I for one am relieved to learn that Joe Biden knows that the great scourge facing the nation today isn't a global pandemic. It isn't foreign interference in democratic elections. It's... Menthol cigarettes.

I guess the tobacco lobby is behind on its payments.

Are you really implying that Biden is placing the importance of dealing with menthol cigarettes above dealing with the pandemic, really? Because it sure seems like you are.

For mine, any reasonable measure that makes it harder for Big Tobacco to hook young kids on their death-dealing products is a good thing, and stopping them from making their products more attractive to kids is a reasonable measure!

Agreed! Apparently, theprestige thinks the Biden admin. finds it difficult to do more than one thing at a time, too. If they do anything about getting kids not to start smoking, they must give up dealing with the pandemic and foreign interference in our elections to do so.

 

[Stacyhs]

So, we had a really important speech to the nation, really huge proposals going on - and this thread focuses, yes, on menthol cigarettes?
edit: is this one of these "issues" fabricated by the right wing media machine, are Hannity, Carlson et al spouting about this?

It's not like we haven't already discussed many of the things Biden covered in his speech tonight. Raising taxes for the rich, closing tax loopholes, making corporations pay more, policing reforms, his infrastructure plan, etc. we've all discussed at length. The menthol cigarette bit is new.

 

[xjx388]

Did you guys even look at why Biden wants the menthol cigarettes banned?

At least discuss the issues.

USA Today Opinion: With menthol cigarettes, Big Tobacco targets Black lives. Don't allow profiting from death.


And

Right. It’s another “Think of the children!” argument now rolled into the “Black Lives Matter” movement.

Tobacco companies profit off the sales of their products. Their products are addictive and harmful. They appeal to kids. But tobacco products aren’t in any danger of being made illegal like other addictive and harmful intoxicants. I think it is stupid to ban a flavor of a legal product simply because kids will want it and minorities are disproportionately affected.

I’m not a smoker and I abhor the stuff, but plain cigarettes are not really all that less appealing to smokers. You think kids aren’t gonna just smoke Marlboro Reds? You think black smokers will just give up smoking because they can’t get Kools?

Unless tobacco is banned entirely, there will be a certain portion of the population who chooses to smoke. It’s not going to be significantly less because they take away a flavor.

I asked before: why isn’t anyone seriously suggesting that flavored alcoholic beverages be banned? They appeal to kids and minorities too. Alcohol is addictive along with arguably greater societal and health impacts too.

It’s just silly and won’t make a lick of difference in teen/black smoking. But it’s a form of politicking the Dems are good at: ineffective, feel-good, “look, we did something!” policies.

Bottom line: Adults who smoke want flavored products. Why shouldn’t they have them? Kids? Make selling a pack of cigs to anyone under 21 a felony. Done.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Right. It’s another “Think of the children!” argument now rolled into the “Black Lives Matter” movement.

Tobacco companies profit off the sales of their products. Their products are addictive and harmful. They appeal to kids. But tobacco products aren’t in any danger of being made illegal like other addictive and harmful intoxicants. I think it is stupid to ban a flavor of a legal product simply because kids will want it and minorities are disproportionately affected.

I’m not a smoker and I abhor the stuff, but plain cigarettes are not really all that less appealing to smokers. You think kids aren’t gonna just smoke Marlboro Reds? You think black smokers will just give up smoking because they can’t get Kools?

Unless tobacco is banned entirely, there will be a certain portion of the population who chooses to smoke. It’s not going to be significantly less because they take away a flavor.

I asked before: why isn’t anyone seriously suggesting that flavored alcoholic beverages be banned? They appeal to kids and minorities too. Alcohol is addictive along with arguably greater societal and health impacts too.

It’s just silly and won’t make a lick of difference in teen/black smoking. But it’s a form of politicking the Dems are good at: ineffective, feel-good, “look, we did something!” policies.

Bottom line: Adults who smoke want flavored products. Why shouldn’t they have them? Kids? Make selling a pack of cigs to anyone under 21 a felony. Done.

You don't seem to have a grasp of the issues here. It's too late tonight to bring you up to speed but in the morning I will.

 

[Belz...]

No one's talking about banning tobacco. But tobacco has long been marketed to teenagers with the intent of hooking them for life, and menthol flavoring is part of that. You want to smoke tobacco, enjoy it. But it should taste like tobacco, not mouthwash.

As much as I despise smoking I don't see a valid reason to disallow any flavour of cigarettes.

 

[Tero]

Jobs jobs jobs! Go be a federal contractor! 15 dollars an hour! Better than 8 dollars at McDonalds. But you could look at those too, maybe the store will go for 15 in this covid era.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Many government regulations, even tax laws, are enforced with civil penalties, not criminal charges. It would be easy to say "If you sell menthol cigarettes, you will be fined an amount equal to x times your sales." Not a crime, but still an incentive to comply.

Eric Garner was killed by the NYPD when stopped for selling black market cigarettes. Let's not be naive. Prohibition means enforcement by the armed agents of the state.

If menthols are largely popular among black Americans, that means these illicit markets will largely exist within black communities and be operated by black Americans, putting them squarely in the sights of enforcement agents.

 

[Craig4]

Eric Garner was killed by the NYPD when stopped for selling black market cigarettes. Let's not be naive. Prohibition means enforcement by the armed agents of the state.

If menthols are largely popular among black Americans, that means these illicit markets will largely exist within black communities and be operated by black Americans, putting them squarely in the sights of enforcement agents.

No one is talking about making anything a crime. The FDA is talking about telling manufacturers they can't add menthol to cigarettes. Adding menthol would be a civil violation enforced by the FDA on the manufacturer. No one is talking about adding menthol to the list of banned narcotics in schedule one or two (which would make owning the cigarettes a crime).

 

[ahhell]

Indeed.

In this country, we have managed to dramatically reduce the number of smokers in our communities from 30%+ of the population in the mid-1980s, to just 11% today, and that has been achieved through a number of government initiatives...

1. No tobacco product or company advertising allowed in any media.

2. No tobacco product or company advertising in shops, even ones selling those products. Instant fine $1000, additional transgressions lead to prosecution and fines up to $10000.

3. No tobacco product or company sponsorship allowed for any sports, sporting events, competitions, festivals or any other events of any kind.

4. Cigarettes and tobacco products must be hidden from view. Instant fine $1000, additional transgressions lead to prosecution and fines up to $10000.

5. Cigarettes and tobacco products must not be sold to persons under the age of 18, purchasers must provide ID. The Ministry of Health regularly uses bait purchasers to test if they will sell to under 18s. Instant fine $1000, additional transgressions lead to prosecution and fines up to $10000.

6. All workplaces, clubs, bars and restaurants are no smoking indoors.

7. Huge, punitive taxes on tobacco products, pushing the price of a pack of 20 to about $33.00

8. Large, graphic health warnings on packets.

And a whole lot more restrictions are in the pipeline for this year

9. All sellers of cigarettes and other tobacco products to be licenced

10. Restrict sales of smoked tobacco products to a limited number of specific store types (so no sales in corner dairies, pubs, bars, supermarkets, mass market stores or grocery stores) Sales will be pretty much limited to licensed tobacconists.

11. Force reduction of nicotine levels in smoked tobacco products to very low, in order to make it harder to become addicted.

12. Prohibit filters in smoked tobacco products.

13. Prohibit innovations aimed at increasing the appeal and addictiveness of smoked tobacco products.

If you're gonna all draconian, don't **** around with half-measures, go the full Monty!!

In my country, we've done roughly the same, mostly by increasing taxes and banning ads on TV and I think magazines.

 

[BobTheCoward]

There are benefits to smoking....it is a stimulant.

Wanting your stimulant combined with an analgesic to make the experience more pleasant is an activity that needs protecting...not banning.