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The behaviour of US police officers

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lobosrul5 said:
https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/21/us/ohio-columbus-police-shooting-15-year-old/index.html

May I suggest watching around the 1:55 to 2:05 timeframe of that video very closely.
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I'm not sure what you think I'm supposed to see. Have I once said the dead girl had not appeared to be about to stab the other girl? :boggled:

I also said given the cop's options and training, he did what he was trained to do. The victim was not in position to slit the girl in pink's throat. She was obviously in position to stab the girl in pink.

Perhaps you are conflating my posts where I referred to cops shooting mentally ill people with knives when the person was not near anyone.

Cops do that. You don't drop the knife, they shoot regardless of how close the knife wielder is to anyone. I gave those as other examples that shoot to kill might not have been the best option.

Given that is the cop's body cam it even looks like the girl's ass was a much larger target than the chest.
 
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JoeMorgue said:
Okay but we're getting dangerously close to putting LEOs into the same position the LEOs put minorities into.

"What should they have done?"
"The exact opposite of what they did."
"But if they had done the exact opposite you'd be still complaining, saying they should have done what they did in real life. It's always the same, you should have done whatever it is you didn't do."

If the police had OCed the girl, the exact same people would be in the discussion having a problem with that.
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Yeah right. :rolleyes:
 
JoeMorgue said:
I'm sure the argument would just be "Well it's different because I'm not a little girl" but I've been OCed multiple times and while it sucks on a level of suck that is hard to describe, it doesn't really like physically "stop" you from doing something like a Taser or... well being killed.

I'm not going to sit here and split the hair, but if an adult was running at me with a knife I would not trust OC to stop him.
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What's OC?
 
Darat said:
No one - apart from SG is questioning the police action…

Again we are using this as an example of a type of incident.
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And I've said numerous times that cop at that time did what he was trained to do and didn't do anything wrong.

I am using it as a example where only shooting to kill is not necessary in every case. Police need to question that position.


I should also point out that I took that position for granted, that it was too dangerous not to aim at center mass. I have changed my position on this and the case we are talking about is a case in point.
 
JoeMorgue said:
I'm sure the argument would just be "Well it's different because I'm not a little girl" but I've been OCed multiple times and while it sucks on a level of suck that is hard to describe, it doesn't really like physically "stop" you from doing something like a Taser or... well being killed.

I'm not going to sit here and split the hair, but if an adult was running at me with a knife I would not trust OC to stop him.
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There are examples where a man attacking a woman to rape her was not stopped by pepper spray, and the same failure has occurred when assailants are in physical combat with police.

That should not be taken as evidence pepper spray never stops anyone. It's hard to stab someone you cannot see and the momentary disruption of events would have been enough for other actions to take place like the girl in pink getting away or the cop getting close enough to taser the girl.

Again, just because tasers don't always stop people doesn't mean they never do. And in fact if you look at the circumstances cops taser people over and over, it's because after the jolt the person continues to not cooperate, not that the jolt doesn't stop them each time.
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
It doesn't take any longer to shoot the thigh or pelvis than it took to shoot mid chest.

How many times have bystanders been killed by a cop's errant bullet?
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It's much more likely if they don't aim for center mass, like they have been trained to do.

( FWIW I don't believe all US police officers should be carrying guns at all times. However, if this one hadn't been armed, the other girl in the fight would probably be dead. )
 
Belz... said:
What's OC?
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Sorry oleoresin capsicum, the "official" name for "Pepper Spray." My military jargon subroutine kicked in there for a second.

Generally speaking when talking about "Pepper Spray" what is discussed is a .18% to 3% concentration of oleoresin capsicum, a chemical derived from chili peppers.

It's fallen out of favor but Mace is chemically different. It's actually a brand name for legit Phenacyl chloride tear gas.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
There are examples where a man attacking a woman to rape her was not stopped by pepper spray, and the same failure has occurred when assailants are in physical combat with police.

That should not be taken as evidence pepper spray never stops anyone. It's hard to stab someone you cannot see and the momentary disruption of events would have been enough for other actions to take place like the girl in pink getting away or the cop getting close enough to taser the girl.

Again, just because tasers don't always stop people doesn't mean they never do. And in fact if you look at the circumstances cops taser people over and over, it's because after the jolt the person continues to not cooperate, not that the jolt doesn't stop them each time.
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Okay you really need to let me know where I lose you here.

It stops most of the people most of the time" isn't good enough.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Okay but we're getting dangerously close to putting LEOs into the same position the LEOs put minorities into.

"What should they have done?"
"The exact opposite of what they did."
"But if they had done the exact opposite you'd be still complaining, saying they should have done what they did in real life. It's always the same, you should have done whatever it is you didn't do."

If the police had OCed the girl, the exact same people would be in the discussion having a problem with that.
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Maybe she was actually trying to knife the other person to defend herself?

How much time has anyone spent looking into all the past transgressions of the person she was trying to knife? Do we know that she didn't have a detention in middle school that might make stabbing her justified?

Tell me that's not what we would be talking about it if it were a white guy.
 
pgwenthold said:
Maybe she was actually trying to knife the other person to defend herself?

How much time has anyone spent looking into all the past transgressions of the person she was trying to knife? Do we know that she didn't have a detention in middle school that might make stabbing her justified?

Tell me that's not what we would be talking about it if it were a white guy.
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Well that all depends on how fast she could run...
 
The broader point is probably don't call the cops unless you're accepting that someone risks being shot. Mental health crisis, property crime, crimes of violence, petty disturbances, it's a one size fit all solution. People with guns will show up, and if someone acting up doesn't immediately recognize this threat and go docile, they risk being shot. Or they might get killed anyway by some maniac like Chauvin or reckless moron like Potter.

That's kinda what this conversation boils down to. All the cops really do is show up with a gun and the authority to kill with very little oversight. In some cases they kill people when it's not justified or lawful, and sometimes they kill people when it is justified. Hoping for a "good" outcome is pretty naive, the best we can hope for is that the cops don't brazenly violate the law as they mete out violence.

The idea that police would train and prioritize not killing is simply beyond the pale. The best we can hope for is that they kill the right people. Cops deescalate through overwhelming force, it's what they do. Know that before dialing 911.
 
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