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Doing the least to save your life...

You hear an awful lot from the homeopathy field that the reason for going for their approach is so that they can bolster your immune system to help fight the cancer. (As opposed to chemo and radiation that is supposed to destroy it, albeit supposedly they too give you stuff to help your immune system...at least now...but it wasn't always this way, I don't think...so maybe they got this out of the book on homeopathy?) I guess one would have to research if that(immune system building) really does any good or not.

You hear an awful lot from the homeopathy field period. A lot of it self contradictory.
Anyway, the questions you have to ask are

do those using homeopathy get better more often than patients not using homeopathy?

do those using homeopathy get better more quickly than patients not using homeopathy?

and

do those using homeopathy stay well for longer than patients not using homeopathy?

until you can answer "yes" to any of these questions the "hows" and "whys" don't come into it, you may as well speculate on how Santa can deliver so many presents around the world in one night. :D

So far all the reliable, replicable evidence points to a very big "NO" no
to the three questions I asked.

Homeopathy has had over 200 years to prove itself, it has constantly failed, how much longer should we bother testing it for before we finally declare that there is nothing to find?


Oh and I can honestly say that so far real medicine has learned NOTING from homeopathy, cos homeopathy has nothing useful to teach!
 
Wouldn't you be tempted to get ahold of a quack clinic and see if they had, let's say, some famous clients, who you could personally contact, at least?

1) Can you not see the obvious fallacy there?

2) Can you not see the obvious bias inherent in that approach?
 
Bruto - You raise a good point. I suppose it's feasible that even the person sent home as being cured, for example, really may not be cured, but just thinks they are. So if I called or wrote that person, I would not really know what the truth is. Hmmmm. I guess I would have to tell the clinic that I have skeptical concerns and I'd have to see how they could show me that all these people are being cured better than the conventional way, and just see what kind of an answer I get. Maybe a legitimate place would say that some independent testing facility verifies some of their most remarkable cases, or something.

You hear an awful lot from the homeopathy field that the reason for going for their approach is so that they can bolster your immune system to help fight the cancer. (As opposed to chemo and radiation that is supposed to destroy it, albeit supposedly they too give you stuff to help your immune system...at least now...but it wasn't always this way, I don't think...so maybe they got this out of the book on homeopathy?) I guess one would have to research if that(immune system building) really does any good or not.

It's not just the question of whether someone has actually been cured, or just enjoys a long remission. It's also the question of whether the supposed remissions from quack cures can be attributed to the quack cures, and whether the percentage of these is in any way better than that achieved with placebo or no treatment at all. I think if you went to one of those clinics and voiced your skeptical concerns, you'd probably get the kind of nonsense we read about constantly from homeopathists and other quacks, dodging the issue and speaking mumbo-jumbo. Of course I might be wrong about that. Asking is free.

Researching whether immune system building does any good would be one step, but another, and I should think, just as critical, step, would be to research whether homeopathy, to pick an obvious example, actually acts on the immune system. I could, for example, suggest the relatively plausible sounding theory that improving the quality of your gasoline would improve performance of your car, but you'd be a fool if, believing that, you bought my magical elixir which consists of water that has had a jug of gasoline placed next to it.
 
Hi Fowlsound,

I have posted a link to your story at "Confessions of a Quackbuster".

Regards,

Paul Lee, PT

Hey thanks!

What's the link? (ETA: Nevermind, I found it in your listed homepage. Thanks again!)


Welcome to the forum. :)
 
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Well, the paper is certainly a personal one! I for one prefer to keep my writing at a more impersonal level. However, I'm not sure which approach makes more of an impact. It may depend on your target audience.

The arguments you make are sound, and the examples drawn from your own experience are powerful. But phrases such as "Are you really such a half-wit, mouth breathing moron as to believe that BS?" could well cause some of your audience to stop reading right there.

You also tripped over "its" vs "it's" on page 6. (Sorry, it's the grammar panda bear in me.)

On a side note, I believe Big Pharma are not so much interested in "keeping us sick" as they are interested in finding new and inventive ways to make us believe we are sick so as to sell us more medication. Very often it seems new drugs are an answer in search of a question rather than the other way around.



It was never intended to be anything but a personal account.

I'll have to fix those grammar mistakes, thanks for pointing them out.

If some off the audience stops reading because of strong language, that's not my concern. I put down my thoughts, they are to be taken as they are. If I worried about what everyone else wanted in content, I would end up with a rather stale and impersonal personal account.

if sCAM can use personal accounts, so can the rational people. The difference is there is evidence supporting rational arguments, and sCAM has no supporting evidence.
 
Whoa. Wait a loooooong second.

Even if I had unlimited resources of time and money, there's no way in hell I'd ever go with a homeopathic regimen. For one thing, why would you waste any resource, regardless of its supply?

Curiosity. And the belief that if you try things out, you might learn something, or experience something new and fun.

When I started investigating homeopathy, I tested my worldview against reality. I thought that there were not any double-blind trials that showed homeopathy to be effective. How could there be?

What I found was that there were such trials. It was evident my worldview was in error. There was evidence in support of homeopathy working.

I began to trust expert opinions less and less. Especially when they say things like: "There is no evidence that homeopathy works". I realised they were back-constructing reality from their beliefs, rather than actually knowing that there was no evidence. Just like I had done.

I guess after that I became more and more "woo" as I read, researched and experienced more.

I feel my belief system to be a lot more coherent and consistent than it was before, although it has radically changed. The conspiracy theories made me a bit paranoid for a while, but I have a more positive perspective on them now. I am certainly a lot more relaxed.

Looking back on the past two years, I have experienced incredible things. I have swum with dolphins, cured phobias and traumas, stood in front of an oncoming train, been "possessed" by a ghost on a ghost hunt, met my "soul-mate", and trained with many people who I would have only otherwise seen on TV. Yes, I'm about as "woo" as they come, and I enjoy it.

Of course, I could have found out that all homeopaths talk nonsense and had a hilarious time laughing at their explanations as to why nothing was happenning. I did not have a large investment in the outcome.

It was the act of doing something for fun that made it work for me.
 
Yes, I'm about as "woo" as they come, and I enjoy it.

Of course, I could have found out that all homeopaths talk nonsense and had a hilarious time laughing at their explanations as to why nothing was happenning. I did not have a large investment in the outcome.


So you weren't actually investigating anything scientifically, you were mucking about. The fact that you weren't actually sick allows you to dabble in unproven methods and confirm your own bias.

Great. That has absolutely no medical value whatsoever, and furthermore is a nice example why those who do not persue scientific study of medical treatments should stay the heck away from the sick.

Call me when you have a peer reviewed paper based on double blind study.
 
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Curiosity. And the belief that if you try things out, you might learn something, or experience something new and fun.

Yes, fun should be your top priority for trying to beat cancer. :rolleyes:

When I started investigating homeopathy, I tested my worldview against reality. I thought that there were not any double-blind trials that showed homeopathy to be effective. How could there be?

What I found was that there were such trials. It was evident my worldview was in error. There was evidence in support of homeopathy working.

Source?

I have...stood in front of an oncoming train...

Why did you move?
 
Looking back on the past two years, I have experienced incredible things. I have swum with dolphins, cured phobias and traumas, stood in front of an oncoming train, been "possessed" by a ghost on a ghost hunt, met my "soul-mate", and trained with many people who I would have only otherwise seen on TV. Yes, I'm about as "woo" as they come, and I enjoy it.

That answers every question that I could have asked.

Thanks again for contrasting reality so well.
 
Curiosity. And the belief that if you try things out, you might learn something, or experience something new and fun.

If I want to learn something new and fun, I go to the library and check out books. I buy books. I ask friends about books they've read. And when I read them, I try to apply critical thinking to what I'm reading. I don't go around engaging in pseudoscience and putting the lives of innocent people at risk.

When I started investigating homeopathy, I tested my worldview against reality. I thought that there were not any double-blind trials that showed homeopathy to be effective. How could there be?

Hmmm. Could it be that homeopathy was a crock of sh**, and people who used it to treat serious medical conditions wound up assuming room temperature?

What I found was that there were such trials. It was evident my worldview was in error. There was evidence in support of homeopathy working.

Considering what we've been reading in a number of threads, particularly those from Rolfe on Homeopathy, who, by the way, is well versed in SCIENTIFIC INQUIRY, I find it hard to believe that there's any evidence of homeopathy working at all, unless you're into self-delusion and masochism.

I began to trust expert opinions less and less. Especially when they say things like: "There is no evidence that homeopathy works". I realised they were back-constructing reality from their beliefs, rather than actually knowing that there was no evidence. Just like I had done.

Yeah, that's the stuff! When the experts who have tested it, tried it in double-blind trials, published their findings for peer review, put their reputations on the line, and in some cases, the lives of their patients, and discovered that it's BS... Hey, why listen to scientists, who are just no fun, and devoted to being killjoys, insisting that people actually wind up healthy and healed from what afflicts them, rather than just getting a warm fuzzy.

I guess after that I became more and more "woo" as I read, researched and experienced more.

Oh, you think?

I feel my belief system to be a lot more coherent and consistent than it was before, although it has radically changed. The conspiracy theories made me a bit paranoid for a while, but I have a more positive perspective on them now. I am certainly a lot more relaxed.

Coherent? How? You've yet to make a coherent post, and while you may be calm, I find you to be incredibly cruel and selfish.

Looking back on the past two years, I have experienced incredible things. I have swum with dolphins, cured phobias and traumas, stood in front of an oncoming train, been "possessed" by a ghost on a ghost hunt, met my "soul-mate", and trained with many people who I would have only otherwise seen on TV. Yes, I'm about as "woo" as they come, and I enjoy it.

Fine. Glad you're happy. But don't spew this intellectual slop around here and not expect it to be challenged, and challenged hard.

For one thing, just how in the hell did you know you were possessed by a ghost? People delude themselves in the realm of the paranormal all the time. I can point out to you more than a few myths surrounding a couple of California's "haunted highways," and show you using the FACTS that the whole thing is nothing more than self-delusion. You buy into that filth because you don't want to be bothered with actually using your brain.

Of course, I could have found out that all homeopaths talk nonsense and had a hilarious time laughing at their explanations as to why nothing was happenning. I did not have a large investment in the outcome.

Fowlsound has a huge investment in the outcome. If he invests in the outcome of homeopathy, he runs the very real risk of DYING. Frankly, I have no time for intellectual and medical dilletantes.

It was the act of doing something for fun that made it work for me.

As you said, you had nothing at stake. You wanted to try something new. You really had nothing to lose.

Sorry, but there are far too many people who have too much at stake to engage in the sort of intellectual dishonesty and cruelty you're advocating. If it were truly your life on the line, if it were you with cancer, would you trust a medical professional, whose training and experience had prepared that individual to examine the facts surrounding your condition, or someone who was offering you tap water with it's memory tweaked?

If you choose the latter, you're an idiot, and a fool.
 
Call me when you have a peer reviewed paper based on double blind study.
Well, actually there are such papers, but they tend not to be of very good quality. There are more and better studies showing it doesn't work, hence the conclusion of the meta-analysis published in the Lancet earlier this year, for example.
This finding is compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homoeopathy are placebo effects.
 
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Well, actually there are such papers, but they tend not to be of very good quality. There are more and better studies showing it doesn't work, hence the conclusion of the meta-analysis published in the Lancet earlier this year, for example.



Right. In that case, I shall reword my statement as follows:

"Call me when you actually have a viable cancer treatment."

(Thanks Mojo :) )
 
It's another of their self-contradictions, of course. They shout loudly about any DBPC trials that appear to support homoeopathy, but dismiss any that don't by claiming that DBPC trials are not appropriate to homoeopathy.
 
For example, note the final couple of sentences from this news story about the Lancet paper:
A spokeswoman from the Society of Homeopaths said: "Many previous studies have demonstrated that homeopathy has an effect over and above placebo.

"It has been established beyond doubt and accepted by many researchers, that the placebo-controlled randomised controlled trial is not a fitting research tool with which to test homeopathy."
And then look at this document from the Society of Homeopaths' website titled An Overview of Positive Homeopathy Research and Surveys. Note the DBPC trials listed on pages 5, 7, 8 and 9.


Edited because I forgot to include the links.
 
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Hey thanks!

What's the link? (ETA: Nevermind, I found it in your listed homepage. Thanks again!)


Welcome to the forum. :)
Thanks for the welcome.

I am not yet allowed to post links. It's that stupid rule about 15 link-free entries......:boggled: I can understand the logic in it (to prevent linkspam), but 15 is a lot of chit chat, and for me it's like working with one hand tied behind my back:

"Welcome as our new salesman in the Electrical Appliances department. We hope you can sell a lot of these devices to people, but you won't be allowed to turn on the electricity or demonstrate them until you've sold 15 of them."

I've never seen such a rule on any list before. Maybe they should change it to five link-free entries and trust people a bit more.
 
Thanks for the welcome.

I am not yet allowed to post links. It's that stupid rule about 15 link-free entries......:boggled: I can understand the logic in it (to prevent linkspam), but 15 is a lot of chit chat, and for me it's like working with one hand tied behind my back:

"Welcome as our new salesman in the Electrical Appliances department. We hope you can sell a lot of these devices to people, but you won't be allowed to turn on the electricity or demonstrate them until you've sold 15 of them."

I've never seen such a rule on any list before. Maybe they should change it to five link-free entries and trust people a bit more.
They should certainly be able to trust you, having done so much for the cause of skepticism but I guess they need to try to control other posters and so you get screened when it is not necessary
 

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