Homeland Security watching your library requests.

Ladewig said:
I did not mean to imply that the U.S. as a whole, or any branch of the government, was on the road to fascism.
Perhaps I should have chosen my wording more carefully. I do not think that the U.S. government is fascist. The protestors in question were allowed to protest and were not arrested - as they would be in a fascist state. I do not think that the U.S. is heading towards fascism - I was pointing out that the military was starting to do some things that fascists do. Not enough things that they could be called fascists or even partial fascists, but enough things that we should keep an eye on them. Similary, the executive branch is not fascist or even partially fascist, but without checks and balances, they could try sneek in a fascist action or two.
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I understand, and I was misunderstanding you earlier. We have some agreements on this.

I know someone who is CONVINCED that the US is descending into a Nazi-like fascist state. I mean, they ACTUALLY firmly believe it is coming. When asked for evidence of this, they list tiny little things such as looking at library records, and say "That's how it starts!" A LITTLE overboard, wouldn't you agree? :)
 
Melendwyr said:
How do you think it starts?
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Lots of different things start the same way. To draw the conclusion that we definately are headed for facism, just because of things that are relatively minor, is making a huge leap. Do you disagree?

In case you are wondering, I hate the Patriot Act. But I don't think it means we will be resembling Nazi Germany by the end of the Bush presidency.
 
The foundations libraries are built on are not merely astone, but the freedom of information. Any sort of censorship or institutional intimidation destroys the purpose of libraries, that purpose being to provide free information to ctizens without fear.
 
Melendwyr said:
I'll ask again: How does Fascism begin, Freakshow?
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You can't go read the history of pre-WWII Germany and Italy for yourself?

What does that have to do with the topic at hand? Do you even read my posts? I don't like the Patriot Act. I don't support it.

But I don't think you understand what I am saying. I am talking about someone I know who TRULY BELIEVES, as surely as they believe the sun is going to rise tomorrow morning, that we will be a totalitarian state equivalent to Nazi Germany before the end of the Bush presidency. They are serious when they state that. They are not kidding, and are not exagerating. They truly, deeply believe this is going to happen. Don't you think that view is a bit extreme? Even just a little?
 
Freakshow said:
But I don't think you understand what I am saying. I am talking about someone I know who TRULY BELIEVES, as surely as they believe the sun is going to rise tomorrow morning, that we will be a totalitarian state equivalent to Nazi Germany before the end of the Bush presidency. They are serious when they state that. They are not kidding, and are not exagerating. They truly, deeply believe this is going to happen. Don't you think that view is a bit extreme? Even just a little?
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It sounds perfectly plausible to me, although certainty is probably premature.
 
Melendwyr said:
It sounds perfectly plausible to me, although certainty is probably premature.
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Plausible? There's only about 3 years left in the Bush presidency. Can you give me a rough timeline of what you expect to happen over the next 3 years, that results in our becoming a totalitarian fascist state?
 
Well, we already have a Republican-controlled Congress that offers little to no resistance, a public that will tolerate even the most outrageous statements from the Administration, and upcoming Supreme Court Justices that close allies of the Administration publically state are intended to overthrow secularism in this country.
 
Melendwyr said:
Well, we already have a Republican-controlled Congress that offers little to no resistance, a public that will tolerate even the most outrageous statements from the Administration, and upcoming Supreme Court Justices that close allies of the Administration publically state are intended to overthrow secularism in this country.
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What you desribed doesn't come EVEN CLOSE to Nazi-era Germany.

I want to know how, in the next 3 years:
  • The Bill of Right will be eliminated
  • The Senate and House of Representatives will be dissolved
  • Americans will lose the right to vote
  • The Supreme Court will be stripped of its power
  • The states lose all power, such as local control of law enforcement and the ability to pass local laws.
 
(edit to remove double post)

You don't need those transitions to have a fascist state, Freakshow.
 
Melendwyr said:
Well, we already have a Republican-controlled Congress that offers little to no resistance, a public that will tolerate even the most outrageous statements from the Administration, and upcoming Supreme Court Justices that close allies of the Administration publically state are intended to overthrow secularism in this country.
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So...no rough estimate and timeline of how the things I listed will happen in the next 3 years?

You know, when you argue from a perspective of hyperbole, you lose credibility, and it becomes more difficult to convince people of things.
 
Melendwyr said:
(edit to remove double post)

You don't need those transitions to have a fascist state, Freakshow.
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Ummm...to equal a totalitarian dictatorship like Nazi Germany, yes, you do.

What you've listed is simply policies going through that you don't like. Hey, I don't like a lot of them either. But that is a long way from being a dictatorship.
 
Freakshow said:
Ummm...to equal a totalitarian dictatorship like Nazi Germany, yes, you do.
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You don't need to eliminate the right to vote if you can convince people to vote in a dictator. You don't need to be declared dictator if there are no effective checks against you. You don't need to eliminate the Bill of Rights and the Constitution if you can control how they're "interpreted".

Being like Nazi Germany does not require being identical to Nazi Germany.
 
Melendwyr said:
a public that will tolerate even the most outrageous statements from the Administration,
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The public didn't tolerate the president's statement that Harriet Miers is the most qualified person he could find for the Supreme Court.
 
Melendwyr said:
You don't need to eliminate the right to vote if you can convince people to vote in a dictator. You don't need to be declared dictator if there are no effective checks against you. You don't need to eliminate the Bill of Rights and the Constitution if you can control how they're "interpreted".

Being like Nazi Germany does not require being identical to Nazi Germany.
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What you have described is not "like" Nazi Germany at all. Not even close. In terms of severity, it differs a great deal.
 
Nazi Germany wasn't the archetype or prototype of fascism. There's Greece, Spain, and Italy to look to, for starters.
 
Freakshow said:
What you described doesn't come EVEN CLOSE to Nazi-era Germany.

I want to know how, in the next 3 years:
  • The Bill of Right will be eliminated
  • The Senate and House of Representatives will be dissolved
  • Americans will lose the right to vote
  • The Supreme Court will be stripped of its power
  • The states lose all power, such as local control of law enforcement and the ability to pass local laws.
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Just for grins, I'll have a go at it.

Summer 2008, Al-Queda fires a surface-to-air missile at the president's helicopter and hospitalizes him. Cheney temporarily takes the office of the president. Al-Queda then takes advantage of the lack of security screening on freight loaded onto passenger airlines and plants three bombs - two bring down airliners and 500 people are killed; the third is caught by a Patriot Act wiretap. The stock market drops, and Americans begin to panic. The success of the Patriot Act then causes Congress to pass Patriot II which limits the rights of U.S. citizens in the U.S. to have access to a lawyer in certain cases. An unidentified domestic terrorist takes advantage of the country's fear and explodes a bomb in the Lincoln tunnel killing 25 people. Rumors of more bombs spread. Suspects are arrested and some are tortured. U.S. citizens of arab descent are beaten up and some are killed. Cheney declares martial law. Al-Queda then "increases chatter" and includes uncoded messages to infiltrate anti-military protests. On Cheney's urging, congress passes laws to limit the right to assembly. Protestors march on Washington and are arrested. Riots in major cities causes some govenors to declare a state of emergency and the National Guard is brought in to enforce laws. A-Q then "leaks" a plan to attack polling places. Cheney postpones the election. The Supreme Court disagrees but cannot enforce their decision.

Do I expect all that to happen? No. But is it impossible? No. Would such a fascist state be sustainable in the U.S.? No.

And most importantly, do I believe that the current adminstation wants fascist powers? No.
 
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Ladewig said:
Just for grins, I'll have a go at it.

Summer 2008, Al-Queda fires a surface-to-air missile at the president's helicopter and hospitalizes him. Cheney temporarily takes the office of the president. Al-Queda then takes advantage of the lack of security screening on freight loaded onto passenger airlines and plants three bombs - two bring down airliners and 500 people are killed; the third is caught by a Patriot Act wiretap. The stock market drops, and Americans begin to panic. The success of the Patriot Act then causes Congress to pass Patriot II which limits the rights of U.S. citizens in the U.S. to have access to a lawyer in certain cases. An unidentified domestic terrorist takes advantage of the country's fear and explodes a bomb in the Lincoln tunnel killing 25 people. Rumors of more bombs spread. Suspects are arrested and some are tortured. U.S. citizens of arab descent are beaten up and some are killed. Cheney declares martial law. Al-Queda then "increases chatter" and includes uncoded messages to infiltrate anti-military protests. On Cheney's urging, congress passes laws to limit the right to assembly. Protestors march on Washington and are arrested. Riots in major cities causes some govenors to declare a state of emergency and the National Guard is brought in to enforce laws. A-Q then "leaks" a plan to attack polling places. Cheney postpones the election. The Supreme Court disagrees but cannot enforce their decision.

Do I expect all that to happen? No. But is it impossible? No. Would such a fascist state be sustainable in the U.S.? No.

And most importantly, do I believe that the current adminstation wants fascist powers? No.
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Too many Bruce Willis movies is never good :)
 
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