Cont: I don't think space is expanding Part II

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Continued from here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=348218 As usual the split point is arbitrary and participants are free to respond to posts from the original thread.

Posted By: Agatha

If you think the redshifts tell the story of how the universe started and how it will end, nothing I say will ever change your mind.

It's not just an observed phenomenon to you. It's a creation story.

I always find it interesting how those with alternative models accuse others of dogma and religion, while they are the ones that refuse to accept that their model might be wrong and ignore all criticism.
The fallback position of those who cannot defend themselves.

Mike, your theory is wrong.
Maybe, just maybe it is possible that expanding space is also wrong, but even if it is (and no observation so far has shown it to be), your theory will never replace it, as it fails at every basic level.
If it can be taken apart on a website by people just spending some of their free time on it, it will be shattered the moment you try to actually engage scientists.

To put it in a programming analogy, you are the equivalent of a manager who coded a few lines of BASIC when he was young, who now tells the lead programmer of his company that his brilliant simple solution can be used to optimize the whole IT structure of the company, while ignoring all input from those that actually know what they are talking about.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Ps. I am not implying that posters here are not scientists, but rather that the discourse here is far more cordial than actually trying to get something published.

 

[Reality Check]

Some "dt" idiocy and adds ignorance of mathematics to his pit of ignorance

Well, doing it the calculus way, you're looking for the limit as dt approaches zero.

But using small values of dt in a computer program will approximate it just fine.

7 April 2021: Some "dt" idiocy and adds ignorance of mathematics to his pit of ignorance

The "calculus way" is to actually solve the integral! There is also numerical integration which is good at approximating integration over smooth functions. There is even https://www.wolframalpha.com/ for those who do not know calculus.
Guessing at a value of delta-t (which is not dt) and vaguely hoping that it will give the correct integration is abysmal mathematics.

 

[Reality Check]

Mike Helland's new deep ignorance that we must actually see things before they exist

The redshift distance relation is stated in Hubble's law, v=H₀D.

That seemed to be fine from 1929 to 1998, when the acceleration of the redshifts was firmly established.

Some history followed by repeating his ignorant fantasies.
v=c-HD has nothing to do with Hubble's law. Galaxies close to us are not moving away close to the speed of light ! v is not the v in Hubble's law. H his nothing to do with Hubble. That equation is his seemingly abandoned changing speed of light fantasy that does not cause redshift. The frequency of light does not depend on speed.

7 April 2021: Mike Helland's new deep ignorance that we must actually see things before they exist .
We have never seen dark energy. Whether is causing the acceleration of the expansion of the universe has properties that ensure we cannot see it! But we can measure what it does. We can see that the effect has been in GR since its beginning (a non-zero cosmological constant).
There are other examples such as neutrinos, quarks, black holes, and the hot dense state of the early universe!

7 April 2021: Mike Helland's ignorance about the actually "observed" inflation and dark energy.

10 March 2021: Mike Helland makes a high school science error (Therefore "c - c/(1+HD)²" is a high school science error).
10 March 2021: The total idiocy that he can change the units of Hubble's constant!
21 March 2021: A deeply ignorant "v = c/(1+ D/H}2 fantasy from Mike Helland (even ignorant about his own fantasies !).

 

[Mike Helland]

7 April 2021: Mike Helland's new deep ignorance that we must actually see things before they exist .
We have never seen dark energy. Whether is causing the acceleration of the expansion of the universe has properties that ensure we cannot see it! But we can measure what it does.

And therefore the awards are deserved.

 

[Mike Helland]

I always find it interesting how those with alternative models accuse others of dogma and religion, while they are the ones that refuse to accept that their model might be wrong and ignore all criticism.
The fallback position of those who cannot defend themselves.

Mike, your theory is wrong.
Maybe, just maybe it is possible that expanding space is also wrong, but even if it is (and no observation so far has shown it to be), your theory will never replace it, as it fails at every basic level.
If it can be taken apart on a website by people just spending some of their free time on it, it will be shattered the moment you try to actually engage scientists.

To put it in a programming analogy, you are the equivalent of a manager who coded a few lines of BASIC when he was young, who now tells the lead programmer of his company that his brilliant simple solution can be used to optimize the whole IT structure of the company, while ignoring all input from those that actually know what they are talking about.

Let's say there's a galaxy observed with z=2.

Show me how you calculate it's distance.

 

[Ziggurat]

If you think the redshifts tell the story of how the universe started and how it will end, nothing I say will ever change your mind.

It's not just an observed phenomenon to you. It's a creation story.

On their own, red shifts don’t. They are just one piece of the puzzle.

But for some reason, it’s the only piece you want to play with. And nothing anyone has said has gotten through to you. You refuse to learn.

 

[theprestige]

Crisis in a cosomology thread!

This thread has become long so I have opened a continuation thread here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=350705

Posted By:Agatha​

​

Contrary to this observation, I don't think the thread is expanding. Rather, I subscribe to a "tired idea" hypothesis, which predicts that the ideas will get blurrier and blurrier as time goes on. And this is exactly what is observed.

 

[Reality Check]

And therefore the awards are deserved.

Some nonsense in reply to 7 April 2021: Mike Helland's new deep ignorance that we must actually see things before they exist .

Awards are deserved when people establish the existence of something with conclusive physical evidence even if we cannot see it directly in instruments.
The discoverers of dark energy got the Nobel Prize a decade after the 1998 discovery. That discovery did not spring out of nowhere. Scientists knew in the 1980's that GR without a cosmological constant did not match a series of observations. In 1987 the Supernova Cosmology Project was started. 11 years later we get the 1998 discovery by two independent groups. The other group was the High-Z Supernovae Search Team including Adam Riess and Brian Schmidt.

 

[Reality Check]

An irrelevant and ignorant distance to a galaxy at z = 2 question from Mike Helland

Let's say there's a galaxy observed with z=2.

Show me how you calculate it's distance.

8 April 2021: An irrelevant and ignorant distance to a galaxy at z = 2 question from Mike Helland.
Lukraak_Sisser wrote about the dogma and religion of those with alternative models. Scientists know what science is and that is is not curve fitting with no science. Scientists know science and tend to abandon their invalid ideas by themselves. Scientists are in a community of scientist who review each others idea. Scientists are confident and brave enough to publish their ideas to be criticized by their peers and many others.
We have an enormous body of evidence that the universe is expanding which Mike Helland still cannot understand ! We plug z = 2 into the model and get the distance. Otherwise there is no way to determine its distance from its redshift.
This post shows Mike Helland insisting on not learning about cosmology.

If you think the redshifts tell the story of how the universe started and how it will end, nothing I say will ever change your mind.

It's not just an observed phenomenon to you. It's a creation story.

Redshift does not tell anyone how the universe started. It just says that the universe is expanding. No one can observe the extremely early universe, e.g. inflation starting at ~ 10⁻³⁶ seconds. The best we can do is get to ~1 second with the cosmic neutrino background. The Big Bang theory does not include any creation (if any!) of the universe.

 

[Mike Helland]

We plug z = 2 into the model and get the distance. Otherwise there is no way to determine its distance from its redshift.

I'd like to see someone try to do that, using dark energy.

Here's my version:

25 * (Math.sqrt(1+2) - 1) = 18.3 Gly

The lamda-CDM model predicts just south of that.

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=galaxy+with+redshift+z=+2+hubble+parameter+=+74
implied age of universe | 13.1 billion years
time ago (lookback time) | 9.88 billion years
time since big bang | 3.19 billion years
distance (comoving) | 16.4 billion ly (light years)
5020 Mpc (megaparsecs)
1.55×10^23 km (kilometers)
9.62×10^22 miles
fraction of total observable radius | 0.368
scale factor | 0.333 × current value
(using additional parameters from 5-year WMAP data)

 

[Reality Check]

Mike Helland writes idiocy about the calculation of distance from z

I'd like to see someone try to do that, using dark energy....

8 April 2021: Mike Helland writes idiocy about the calculation of distance from z.

Deep ignorance about even the value of the Hubble constant. The Hubble constant is not 74. It is either around 67 or 73.

He did a calculation at wolframalpha where there are options to include dark energy density, matter density and radiation density. One click adds the measured density parameters, Another click computes!
https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=galaxy+with+redshift+z=+2+hubble+parameter+=+73 with dark energy density = 0.726, matter density = 0.253, radiation density = 0.0000839708.

Comoving distance = 16.8 billion light years for 73, 18.3 billion light years for 67.

8 April 2021: Ignorance of basic mathematics or science: 18.3 is not close to 16.5 and debunks his equation !
His value of 18.3 billion light years is nowhere near the calculated value of 16.5 billion light years for a Hubble constant of 74.
If he had done proper curve fitting to the data then the values should be similar. They are not. I expect he has done no curved fitting at all! He has made up a formula. Seen that it sort of matches the data by eye and has the ignorant idea that his curve fits the data. He has just illustrated that is an ignorant idea.

Mike Helland's hypocrisy of using the Lambda-CDM model that he states is wrong ! The title of this thread is "I don't think space is expanding Part II". The Lambda-CDM model is of an expanding universe with two of the unseen things he does not believe in - dark energy and dark matter. He explicitly stated that he believes dark energy does not exist so he would set dark energy = 0. He has not mentioned dark matter yet but this is a person who wrote he cannot believe in unseen things.

 

[Mike Helland]

8 April 2021: Mike Helland writes
He did a calculation at wolframalpha where there are options to include dark energy density, matter density and radiation density. One click adds the measured density parameters, Another click computes!

Yes.

Now how do you do that computation?

Without using wolfram alpha.

8 April 2021: Ignorance of basic mathematics or science: 18.3 is not close to 16.5 and debunks his equation !
His value of 18.3 billion light years is nowhere near the calculated value of 16.5 billion light years for a Hubble constant of 74.

That is correct.

These are predictions.

Your model has the data taking a hard right.

 

[Reality Check]

An ignorant and idiotic "how do you do that computation?" question from Mike Helland

Yes....

8 April 2021: An ignorant and idiotic "how do you do that computation?" question from Mike Helland.
Repeating his ignorance of cosmology. He should have learned physics and cosmology before making up his fantasies. I do not need to do the computation. It is found in the textbooks and other sources he never bothers to learn.

8 April 2021: Mike Helland writes idiocy about the calculation of distance from z.
An idiotic "Yes" to 8 April 2021: Ignorance of basic mathematics or science: 18.3 is not close to 16.5 and debunks his equation !

8 April 2021: A possibly lying graph with "Lambda-CDM" dots from a person ignorant of astronomy and especially cosmology!
No citation to the source of those "Lambda-CDM" dots. A fantasy about his made up formula giving a prediction. A scientific prediction uses a scientific theory to make testable, falsifiable predictions.
At best what he has is a "forecast" - an extension of a curve that may or may not obey the rules that govern the data it fits. A hypothetical example from the current crisis. Back in March 2020 with the first Covid-19 cases, an ignorant person might have fitted a curve to the data and perhaps come to the consolation of tens of millions of deaths in the next year. They would have ignored the real world where health care measures and eventually vaccines would take the edge off a rapidly rising curve.

 

[Mike Helland]

8 April 2021: An ignorant and idiotic "how do you do that computation?" question from Mike Helland.
Repeating his ignorance of cosmology. He should have learned physics and cosmology before making up his fantasies. I do not need to do the computation. It is found in the textbooks and other sources he never bothers to learn.

8 April 2021: Mike Helland writes idiocy about the calculation of distance from z.
An idiotic "Yes" to 8 April 2021: Ignorance of basic mathematics or science: 18.3 is not close to 16.5 and debunks his equation !

8 April 2021: A possibly lying graph with "Lambda-CDM" dots from a person ignorant of astronomy and especially cosmology!
No citation to the source of those "Lambda-CDM" dots.

Wolfram alpha.

If you can show me how to compute them myself, that'd be cool.

 

[theprestige]

Wolfram alpha.

If you can show me how to compute them myself, that'd be cool.

One of the points made repeatedly in this thread is that until you learn the body of knowledge that supports your being able to compute them yourself, you are not yet ready to do the kind of physics you are attempting here.

 

[Reality Check]

The persistent ignorance that shows it is useless to try to educate Mike Helland

...If you can show me how to compute them myself, that'd be cool.

We know it is useless explaining anything to Mike Helland since this thread at least has shown it is a waste of time. He will ignore it and repeat his debunked and ignorant fantasies yet again.
An easy to understand example. The CMB has physical features that show it must be cosmological. He has known this for many weeks. He still repeats a ignorant fantasy that the CMB is emitted from photons (starlight) redshifting.
I suspect that his website still has the ignorance that was corrected weeks ago, e.g. the stupidity of photons leaving a null geodesic when by definition that is what they always follow!

The pit of ignorance, errors and fantasies that Mike Helland is digging himself into gets deeper.
29 March 2021: Mike Helland states his "decelerating photon" fantasy violates the laws of physics.
29 March 2021: Mike Helland starts a new "expanding time hypothesis" fantasy.
30 March 2021: "I am thinking of the CMB as the radiation itself." idiocy from Mike Helland.
31 March 2021: Mike Helland persists in his fantasies about the CMB when he knows it is cosmological.
31 March 2021: "The energy budget of the expanding universe is quite, um, nonsensical" + "excess energy from the beginning of time" fantasies from Mike Helland.
31 March 2021: "This predicts mature galaxies in the "early" universe" idiocy when he has no predictions !
31 March 2021: "inflation has the entire universe popping into existence" ignorance from Mike Helland.
31 March 2021: "What value of H0 gives you 13.8 billion years" ignorance from Mike Helland
6 April 2021: Some ignorant nonsense about a galaxy with z=11 and a cartoon
6 April 2021: After weeks, Mike Helland is still abysmally ignorant about photons and the CMB !
6 April 2021: An irrelevant display of ignorance and gibberish about GR from Mike Helland.

7 April 2021: Mike Helland's ignorance about the actually "observed" inflation and dark energy.
7 April 2021: Mike Helland's new deep ignorance that we must actually see things before they exist .
7 April 2021: Deeper into his pit of fantasy and ignorance with "The current theory is busted."

8 April 2021: An ignorant and idiotic "how do you do that computation?" question from Mike Helland.
8 April 2021: Mike Helland writes idiocy about the calculation of distance from z.
8 April 2021: Ignorance of basic mathematics or science: 18.3 is not close to 16.5 and debunks his equation !
8 April 2021: A possibly lying graph with "Lambda-CDM" dots from a person ignorant of astronomy and especially cosmology!

 

[Mike Helland]

One of the points made repeatedly in this thread is that until you learn the body of knowledge that supports your being able to compute them yourself, you are not yet ready to do the kind of physics you are attempting here.

Well, this is simple enough:

25 * (Math.sqrt(1+2) - 1)

Have you personally computed the distance to galaxies using dark energy parameters?

Has anyone here?

 

[Reality Check]

Repeats his demand that we personally do a calculation

Has anyone here?

Repeats his demand that we personally do a calculation when he knows wolframalpha exists ! And that the calculation debunks his made up formula.
8 April 2021: Ignorance of basic mathematics or science: 18.3 is not close to 16.5 and debunks his equation !

 

[theprestige]

Well, this is simple enough:

25 * (Math.sqrt(1+2) - 1)

Have you personally computed the distance to galaxies using dark energy parameters?

Has anyone here?

Well, E=mc^2 is pretty simple, too. But until you actually master the physics behind it, you won't be able to do anything useful, or even intelligible with it. Not at the level you're trying to play at, anyway.