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[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

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Belz... said:
So you're saying that self-identification is insufficient to establish their trans identity?

Gee, I hope you're not also in favour of bullying them until they commit suicide, because I heard those were essentially one and the same. Wonder who told me something like that?
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Probably nobody.
 
ponderingturtle said:
That isn't that much of a change rather a rephrasing. You have to understand what prepubescent transitioning means. Clearly you are against someone assigned male at birth wearing a dress before puberty as that would be transitioning, or people listening to anything they say about what their gender is, and just going by your own assumptions.

That is exactly what not letting a prepubescent child transition means. And that is transphobic.
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Who "assigns" sex at birth? The doctor observes the sex and records it on the birth certificate. Sex is just a biological reality.

Who has argued against males wearing dresses? If the kid or grown man wants to wear a dress, let him. These are the "gender roles" we need to be fighting against. If it was socially acceptable for males to wear dresses there would, except in very rare cases, be no need for transitioning.

Wearing a dress isn't (or at least shouldn't be seen as) "transitioning" any more than wearing pale make up is a "transition" to goth.

What people are arguing about is whether or not identifying as a woman gives a biologically male person rights to use the ladies restroom/changing room or particpate in female sports.
 
xjx388 said:
Who "assigns" sex at birth? The doctor observes the sex and records it on the birth certificate. Sex is just a biological reality.
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Not to uncommonly with the help of a scalpel. Or are we going with the sex being male, female and non procreative? When ever that simple biological reality gets brought up no one seems to want to limit male and female to only fertile members.
 
Emily's Cat said:
There's not a lot of good data on detransition. The impression I get is that people who detransition face a lot of negative responses from people in the trans community, and also don't fit back in with other people, and they tend to not get coverage. There's at least some portion of the trans advocates that actively disparage coverage and discussion of detransitioning, and who view detransitioners as "traitors" of a sort.
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Yes, detransitioners are excommunicated, ostracized and silenced. The narrative is that they don't exist, were never trans, only detransitioned due to transphobia (ideologues don't have problems holding entertaining contradictory thoughts as long as these all serve to maintain a closed belief system). Any media coverage at all is evidence of transphobia, bias and plots by those nasty gender critical transphobes (despite the fact that most journalists are terrified to run stories that go against the activist narrative).

But more generally, experts such as Cantor and others have pointed out that activists who are transgender come from the minority for whom transitioning worked well, and who assume that everyone is like them. Those who desist (the majority) don't get heard because they don't become activists (nor do most detransitioners: Keira Bell is an exception). The loudest transgender activists tend to be late transitioners who are a different group from those with early-onset gender dysphoria, but tend to impose their own retrospective regret at not transitioning earlier on others.

Cantor explains this fairly well in this clip.
 
Interesting counterpoint with respect to the rights being demanded.

MANIFESTO FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS IN SCOTLAND

This comprises a whopping four pages. The rights demanded are:
  • Safety and privacy in law
  • Health and bodily autonomy
  • Freedom of speech and association
  • Fairness in sport
  • Accurate data
  • Freedom from male violence and sexual exploitation

It's a rather short, and very concise list of rights, some of which aren't new, rather female humans in Scotland are asking that those rights be upheld on the basis of sex, as they currently exist.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Not to uncommonly with the help of a scalpel. Or are we going with the sex being male, female and non procreative? When ever that simple biological reality gets brought up no one seems to want to limit male and female to only fertile members.
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As I an others have pointed out before, one sex produces many smaller gametes, and another one produces fewer, larger gametes. There is no in-between. Just those two sexes.

Not sure if you were challenging that view or not.
 
Elaedith said:
Yes, detransitioners are excommunicated, ostracized and silenced. The narrative is that they don't exist, were never trans, only detransitioned due to transphobia (ideologues don't have problems holding entertaining contradictory thoughts as long as these all serve to maintain a closed belief system). Any media coverage at all is evidence of transphobia, bias and plots by those nasty gender critical transphobes (despite the fact that most journalists are terrified to run stories that go against the activist narrative).

But more generally, experts such as Cantor and others have pointed out that activists who are transgender come from the minority for whom transitioning worked well, and who assume that everyone is like them. Those who desist (the majority) don't get heard because they don't become activists (nor do most detransitioners: Keira Bell is an exception). The loudest transgender activists tend to be late transitioners who are a different group from those with early-onset gender dysphoria, but tend to impose their own retrospective regret at not transitioning earlier on others.

Cantor explains this fairly well in this clip.
Click to expand...

Where did you get the idea that Cantor is an "expert"? He sounds like a conspiracy theorist.
 
Emily's Cat said:
:( I'm sorry I depressed you.

I'd much rather have you get angry on behalf of female humans everywhere!
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Speaking of everywhere... maybe it's limited experience on my part but the women I know have never discussed with any uneasiness being among men. Yes, we hear about incidents, rape, etc. But I've only ever met one actual hard-sexist (borderline misogynist).

Is it worse in the US or is my experience and female acquaintances not typical?
 
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