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[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

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I'd be rather surprised if anyone from these threads gets behind that bill, even those vilified as transphobes and TERFs.

I'm not getting behind it, but I'm also not standing in front of it yelling "stop".

Just upthread, sarge stipulated that we're all trans-rights activists, in response to my saying I've reversed my stance on trans rights. She is basically correct.

However, my stance has pretty much reversed on one important point: The nature of transsexuality and the premise that it is best treated by social gender transition and the rest of the trans-affirming treatment panoply.

So governments putting the brakes on such treatements doesn't bother me as much today as it would have a couple years ago.

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It also dismisses LJ's appeal to government enlightenment as the basis for validating transsexuality.

I guess he'll have to start appealing to whatever medical authorities are telling him which governments are doing it right, and which are doing it wrong.
 
It's a non-sequitur to Belz's question, but - Governments regulate medical practices and protocols all the time. As they should.

Except of course they don't, but never let that get in your way. The majority of times they do are when doing things like making up non medical names for theoretical medical procedures useful to demonize them. Like the whole partial birth abortion thing. But hey forcing more risky and dangerous procedures on women is a normal and regular part of the governments job after all.

This kind of thing is typically done through professional organizations of doctors not through legal means. Except for things like demanding totally unnecessary things as barriers to abortion.
 
I read the actual North Carolina bill. The media presentations were pretty accurate. It's nuts.
 
I'm not getting behind it, but I'm also not standing in front of it yelling "stop".
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So governments putting the brakes on such treatements doesn't bother me as much today as it would have a couple years ago.

I agree with that, but this bill really would require a teacher to notify parents if the teacher observed gender nonconforming behavior.

That's....nuts.
 
I agree with that, but this bill really would require a teacher to notify parents if the teacher observed gender nonconforming behavior.

That's....nuts.

Not nuts. Intentionally cruel, because the anti-trans agenda is one fueled by bigotry against trans people.
 
I've asked what is specifically transphobic about that part of the bill. We've had discussion in this thread about the possible ills of transitioning children before puberty or using blockers. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask the question. Irrespective of the overreach issue, I wanted to know why even raising the point was seen as transphobic.
You asked "Is it transphobic to say that prepubescent kids shouldn't transition?", which means "Is it transphobic to say that prepubescent kids shouldn't be allowed to express their gender in the way they feel comfortable with?"
It is telling Jimmy: "No, you are not allowed to be a girl. You must conform to gender norms." That is transphobic.

If you asked "Is it transphobic to say extreme caution should be used before prescribing puberty blockers to prepubescent children?" or "Is it transphobic to say that prepubescent children shouldn't get sex change surgery?" the answer would be "no, of course not."
 
Analogies, again.

This analogy, that comes up again and again and again, is a great example of why arguments from analogy usually fail to persuade. I look at males and females and see big differences. I look at blacks and whites and see almost no difference except a very superficial characteristics with no great significance. (i.e skin color, hair texture, whatever) So the analogy doesn't focus on what I see as significant.

Slight aside... There *are* functional differences between racial phenotypes, but they're irrelevant in the vast majority of situations. For example, the ration of leg length to torso length is higher for black people than for white people, an for white people it's higher than for asian people. There are always exceptions, but as a generality it holds true. This then has influence on things like running and hurdling records. In general, black people win more olympic races where stride length to weight has an influence than white people do, and asian people tend to win even fewer. On the other hand, that longer torso effect when applied to overall taller people gives tall white people an advantage in some of the swimming events. And the overall shorter stature, combined with longer torsos, tends to advantage asian people in some gymnastics events.

That said, however, even those phenotypical differences are small relative to the differences produced by being a sexually dimorphic species.
 
It's a non-sequitur to Belz's question, but - Governments regulate medical practices and protocols all the time. As they should.
We definitely know now what the Republicans meant when they complained Obamacare would cause "the government to get between you and your doctor".
 
An analogy is meant to be analogous in a significant structural aspect, not in surface appearance. In other words, it is meant to illustrate that two examples have a similar underlying structural property which allows transfer from one situation to another which on the surface appears dissimilar.

The 'analogy' that LJ keeps using is completely dissimilar in key structural aspects. It is intended to exploit superficial similarity between two situations which are not structurally analogous.

Most analogies that I find useful as illustrations are ones that help to isolate and highlight a relationship between elements under discussion. I find them useful, because it frequently seems that dynamic relationships are difficult for many people to grasp. That's not intended to impugn anyone's intelligence, more that the "moving and changing relationship between things that causes a thing that can't be pinned down" is something that I have a good feel for as a result of my background in math, particularly in differential equations. A large chunk of my professional career has focused on the elasticity between multiple factors, and how they influence each other simultaneously... and trying to identify the most impactful from the immaterial.

Most people don't tend to innately think about situations as a pile of objects tied together by rubber bands, all bouncing around and trying to move in different directions... and getting a feel for what the overall movement of the collection of items is most likely to do, and what kinds of events cause the greatest variations from equilibrium. Honestly, it's a really weird way to visualize things... but hey, that tendency is part of what makes me successful in my field. My lack of a tendency to be able to craft linguistic arguments that evoke an emotional response is part of why I'm NOT in politics :) And my near complete inability to visualize three dimensional objects with clarity and accuracy is part of why my art teacher in college suggested I might be better suited for a STEM field than a liberal arts one...
 
I agree with that, but this bill really would require a teacher to notify parents if the teacher observed gender nonconforming behavior.

That's....nuts.

Well... It is and it isn't.

On the one hand, gender stereotypes should probably be on the way out. Schoolteachers deciding who is and isn't acting sufficiently like the gender social construct for their sex? Probably shouldn't be a thing. So it's a bit nuts to have a law that validates that kind of thinking.

On the other hand, if a teacher believes that one of their students is suffering from some kind of dysphoria, of course they shouldn't be keeping their observations to themselves. They need to notify the parents, just like for an other medical condition they suspect has gone unnoticed.

Especially if the teacher's intention is to encourage or support a gender transition in the child. That's definitely something that the teacher should not be deciding for themselves. That needs to be a decision made by the parents. Withholding that information from the parents, especially to help transition the child without the parents' consent, would be extremely unethical. There really shouldn't need to be a law spelling that out, but here we are.
 
Well... It is and it isn't.

On the one hand, gender stereotypes should probably be on the way out. Schoolteachers deciding who is and isn't acting sufficiently like the gender social construct for their sex? Probably shouldn't be a thing. So it's a bit nuts to have a law that validates that kind of thinking.

On the other hand, if a teacher believes that one of their students is suffering from some kind of dysphoria, of course they shouldn't be keeping their observations to themselves. They need to notify the parents, just like for an other medical condition they suspect has gone unnoticed.

Especially if the teacher's intention is to encourage or support a gender transition in the child. That's definitely something that the teacher should not be deciding for themselves. That needs to be a decision made by the parents. Withholding that information from the parents, especially to help transition the child without the parents' consent, would be extremely unethical. There really shouldn't need to be a law spelling that out, but here we are.

Pretty clear that "supporting a gender transition" is not the motivating factor in this legislation that explicitly criminalizes any medical support for doing so.

Let's not play dumb. This is about outing trans kids to their parents who may not be supportive.
 
Most analogies that I find useful as illustrations are ones that help to isolate and highlight a relationship between elements under discussion. I find them useful, because it frequently seems that dynamic relationships are difficult for many people to grasp. That's not intended to impugn anyone's intelligence, more that the "moving and changing relationship between things that causes a thing that can't be pinned down" is something that I have a good feel for as a result of my background in math, particularly in differential equations. A large chunk of my professional career has focused on the elasticity between multiple factors, and how they influence each other simultaneously... and trying to identify the most impactful from the immaterial.

Most people don't tend to innately think about situations as a pile of objects tied together by rubber bands, all bouncing around and trying to move in different directions... and getting a feel for what the overall movement of the collection of items is most likely to do, and what kinds of events cause the greatest variations from equilibrium. Honestly, it's a really weird way to visualize things... but hey, that tendency is part of what makes me successful in my field. My lack of a tendency to be able to craft linguistic arguments that evoke an emotional response is part of why I'm NOT in politics :) And my near complete inability to visualize three dimensional objects with clarity and accuracy is part of why my art teacher in college suggested I might be better suited for a STEM field than a liberal arts one...

Heh. I prefer metaphors for this kind of work. Not a direct relating of analogous components, but a shifting of the conceptual framework that enables a new perspective on the thing itself.

For example, I recently ran across an idea about art that gave me a new perspective on art:
"For a while now, I’ve been talking about art objects as 'machines for thinking': Our job as viewers is ... to switch them on."

(Discussion here: https://althouse.blogspot.com/2021/04/for-while-now-ive-been-talking-about.html)​

I don't see any obvious or easy analogy between art and machinery. But as a metaphor, it helps me engage with art in a fresh way.
 
On the other hand, if a teacher believes that one of their students is suffering from some kind of dysphoria, of course they shouldn't be keeping their observations to themselves.
It would be pretty unlikely a teacher can determine that from a child's behaviour on its own, and even more unlikely it is something that the parents hadn't noticed. But there may be cases where a child wants to talk to their teacher in private about sexuality or gender issues without the parents knowing. This law makes it illegal for a teacher to be someone children can trust.
 
I agree with that, but this bill really would require a teacher to notify parents if the teacher observed gender nonconforming behavior.

That's....nuts.

Well, yes. That's almost as sexist and reactionary as gender identity ideology.
 
The concept that by granting civil rights to Group A, Group B can claim that - as a direct consequence of that granting of civil rights to Group A - some or all of them in Group B are being disadvantaged (eg by being placed at increased risk to their personal safety).



First, I think there's a need to consider whether the claim being made is a plausible claim in the first place. Secondly, I think it's important to be able to elucidate specifically what rights are under consideration - something you seem to persistently sidestep.

1) In this case, I think the claim of increased harm and reduced human rights is plausible. Of course I'm biased - I and those like me are on the receiving end of that harm and rights reduction. Of course you're biased - this isn't an impact that affects you or those like you in any way at all.

And in this case, we do actually have evidence of harm having occurred. We have multiple documented cases of female humans in prison and in shelters being directly harmed as a result of self-declared transgender people being allowed into those safe spaces as an entitlement. So it's not merely a claim of "oh, this might happen". It's a fact that has already occurred. Female inmates have already been raped by the penises of self-declared transwomen, and those are rapes that are only able to occur because of the extension of privileges to those transwomen - privileges, by the way, that are NOT available to any other person. Cisgender people do NOT get a choice about where they are placed in prison. This is not a right that transgender people are being granted in equality to cisgender people, this is a special privilege above and beyond what cisgender people are allowed.

2) Which of course, brings me around to my second comment with respect to your bolded comment: What are the rights being asked for, and are they actually rights as opposed to privileges?

You, along with several of the activists in this thread repeatedly refer to the need for transgender people to be granted equal rights, but you also neglect to discuss what those rights are. As far as I can tell, most of what you're focused on aren't rights, they are privileges.

Rights, from my perspective, include equal access to housing and employment, and fair treatment under the law. Additionally, I would include the human right to not be subjected to violence or harassment as a result of their status as a transgender person. Those are rights that I - and every single other person in this thread - support 100%, and will very happily engage in activist efforts to obtain on behalf of transgender people.

Unfortunately, that is not where the bulk of the effort appears to be. The majority of the argument and the effort is one that I feel is misplaced: it focuses on substituting 'gender identity' for 'sex' across the board, in a way that results in transgender people having privileges that are not available to cisgender people. Cisgender males don't have the right to be in the presences of naked females against the will of those females, and vice versa. Cisgender people aren't entitled to a choice of which prison ward they use. Cisgender males don't have the right to compete against females in sport. Cisgender males don't have the right to access rape and domestic violence shelters designated for female victims.

Those rights do not exist.

Yet those are the 'rights' that transgender people are asking for. They're not asking for equal treatment. Equal treatment with respect to those asks are something they already have. They already live by the same strictures that every other cisgender person in our society adheres to.

What transgender people and their allies are asking for is special privileges that cisgender people do not have. They are asking to override existing sex-based segregations and services, and to be allowed choices and agency that cisgender people do not have. To make matters worse, those special privileges that are being demanded create situations that increase existing disadvantages for a class of people - females. So not only are transgender people and their allies demanding special privileges, they are demanding special privileges that directly disadvantage female humans.

In the transgender rights situation, it's females claiming that if transwomen are now allowed to use female changing spaces, females will be placed - as a direct consequence of transwomen having been granted that right - in a position of greater risk to their personal safety/privacy/etc.


In the black civil rights situation, it's white people claiming that if black males are now allowed to sit tight up against white females on narrow 2-person bench seats, white females will be placed - as a direct consequence of black people having been granted that right - in a position of greater risk to their personal safety/privacy/etc.

There is a fair bit of bait and switch here. I've bolded and colored the elements that I'd like you to give due consideration to.

You repeatedly use black civil rights as an analogy or comparator for transgender privileges. But your analogies are not clean: they implcitly include the exact situation that is under discussion as a source of harm and disadvantage. Your argument is presented as if the analogous dynamic is the relationship between black and white... but it still inherently relies on the dynamic between male and female.

Please take a moment and consider some alternatives.

In regard to public, non private interactions, such as busses and lunch counters: Would your argument work as well if you were relying on the claim by white males to be placed in greater danger from black males?

In regard to more private interactions, such as restrooms and changing rooms: Would your argument hold any water at all if it were relying on a claim by white females that they would be placed in greater danger from black females?

I rather think not. Particularly because those claims were never made, those were not arguments used in opposition to black civil rights.
 
You asked "Is it transphobic to say that prepubescent kids shouldn't transition?", which means "Is it transphobic to say that prepubescent kids shouldn't be allowed to express their gender in the way they feel comfortable with?"It is telling Jimmy: "No, you are not allowed to be a girl. You must conform to gender norms." That is transphobic.

If you have to apply two entire changes to what I wrote in order to make it transphobic, then it probably wasn't transphobic to begin with.

How about you address what I actually wrote rather than the fictions you imagine in your mind?
 
Pretty clear that "supporting a gender transition" is not the motivating factor in this legislation that explicitly criminalizes any medical support for doing so.

Let's not play dumb. This is about outing trans kids to their parents who may not be supportive.

I guess we need to decide what we're talking about.

Does the teacher think little Johnny is playing dress-up, and that's okay because gender stereotypes are crap and should be phased out of society? Then she should probably keep her mouth shut because it's none of her business and it really doesn't matter anyway. And there shouldn't be a law telling her to report it.

Or does the teacher think that little Johnny has a medical condition that should be treated by playing dress-up (among other things). Then the parents probably need to be informed about the possible medical condition, and the treatment the school is embarking on. And there probably should be some provision in law for teachers not keeping quiet about their student's medical conditions.

That said, it's probably a pointless provision in this bill, since the teacher would be calling out a condition it would be illegal to treat regardless.

But it does get nuttier than I first thought. If little Johnny playing dress-up is a trans-affirming therapy, then this bill would prohibit the teacher from supporting it. She'd pretty much have to enforce gender stereotypes. And that's stupid regardless of how you feel about transsexuality.
 
That said, it's probably a pointless provision in this bill, since the teacher would be calling out a condition it would be illegal to treat regardless.

.

It's not pointless if the intended goal is to make life very difficult for trans kids, as part of an effort to keep these people closeted. It's not pointless if being outed by the school leads to bigoted parents taking abusive measures against their trans kids to enforce gender norms, like shipping them off to some pray-away-the-gay gulag out in Utah.

Like Earthborn says above, such a provision would mean trans kids could no longer safely confide in school employees, nor honestly express their gender identity at school, where they spend huge portions of their time as children.
 
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