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Jogging in Georgia while black.

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ponderingturtle said:
It is the idea that any serious runner is by definition a world class athlete. What about regular runners who are not world class athletes, are they serious or not?
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Apparently not :rolleyes:

I'd consider myself a fairly serious runner - up to 2,000 miles a year and there's no way on Earth I'd be able to run a sub 6-minute mile, much less a sub-4.

That's because I train for distance and while I can run 20 7:45 minute miles anything much quicker gets difficult very quickly.

If I had to run 400 metres flat out, I'd be useless for a while afterwards
 
ponderingturtle said:
It is the idea that any serious runner is by definition a world class athlete.
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What's that you say? ANY? Who said ANY serious runner could drop a 4? This is more of the same dishonest BS being posted here, like the other one switching to sub4.

Perhaps I'm being unfair to you. Here, the floor is yours to prove you are not lying: show the quote where I said anything like ANY serious runner drops 4. Go ahead, I'll wait.

What about regular runners who are not world class athletes, are they serious or not?
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Might be, might not be. Kind of an irrelevant question. Actually we have established ad nauseum that a serious runner cannot possibly run a 4 minute mile. That is a "mistake" to claim. Do keep up. This is important ****, man.
 
Thermal said:
What's that you say? ANY? Who said ANY serious runner could drop a 4? This is more of the same dishonest BS being posted here, like the other one switching to sub4.
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When you used it as the standard by which any serious runner could be expected to achieve.
 
Come on guys get it right. The actual quote was this:

And an actual runner can drop a mile in four minutes.
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Can we please have several pages arguing about the meaning of the word "actual" instead of arguing about the meaning of the word "serious"?
 
Thermal said:
What's that you say? ANY? Who said ANY serious runner could drop a 4? This is more of the same dishonest BS being posted here, like the other one switching to sub4.

Perhaps I'm being unfair to you. Here, the floor is yours to prove you are not lying: show the quote where I said anything like ANY serious runner drops 4. Go ahead, I'll wait.



Might be, might not be. Kind of an irrelevant question. Actually we have established ad nauseum that a serious runner cannot possibly run a 4 minute mile. That is a "mistake" to claim. Do keep up. This is important ****, man.
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Here's you saying "an actual runner can drop a mile in four minutes" and here's you saying "High schoolers are dropping that kind of time nowadays"
 
Matthew Best said:
Come on guys get it right. The actual quote was this:



Can we please have several pages arguing about the meaning of the word "actual" instead of arguing about the meaning of the word "serious"?
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What a glorious standard to hold a murder victim to.
 
The Don said:
Apparently not :rolleyes:

I'd consider myself a fairly serious runner - up to 2,000 miles a year and there's no way on Earth I'd be able to run a sub 6-minute mile, much less a sub-4.

That's because I train for distance and while I can run 20 7:45 minute miles anything much quicker gets difficult very quickly.

If I had to run 400 metres flat out, I'd be useless for a while afterwards
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Would you consider your long distance pace to be "running for your life"? That's the context of the speed Arbery was running at, of course. My argument is he was trotting along pretty slowly to cover a couple football fields in 8 minutes.

Now that I think of it, I guess that might be why some here are crucifying me over the 4 min mile thing. They checked my math, and realized Arbery was in fact trotting along very slowly, not "running for his life", so an attack against the irrelevancy is needed to change the subject.

The funny part is, I am giving Arbery much more credit than other posters. I say he was a strong and confident guy, who was not intimidated by the butterballs in their pick 'em up trucks. Others want to paint him as timid and fearful. Made up claims of guns being out "the whole time" are put forth (unevidenced).

I'd actually still like to hear all about how Travis had his shotgun out the whole time while he was driving the pickup. A shotgun with a minimum length legal barrel is around 3' long. Really, really want to hear how he drove and turned around and all with that in front of him. Oh, and made it invisible for the times when the truck was caught on surveillance camera.

Anybody?
 
Thermal said:
How many different ways can I say this?

It was a grievous mistake for me to assert that a serious runner can run a mile in 4 minutes. It just can't be, and the fault is entirely mine for making such an absurd claim. I will rap out a 5k in my half assed half hour+ time in penance for my wanton hubris.

Again: it is absurdly innacurate to claim that a serious runner can do anything like a four minute mile. Conceded. My bad entirely.

Welcome to the 2021 ISF, all.
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I don't know why this irks you so much. You asserted that people still in school can do that time today, when in fact only a very small proportion of competitive runners can make that time. Why is it so difficult to just admit that you were wrong without getting all pissy about it? Is your ego that fragile?
 
Matthew Best said:
Come on guys get it right. The actual quote was this:



Can we please have several pages arguing about the meaning of the word "actual" instead of arguing about the meaning of the word "serious"?
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(In fairness, I said both actual and serious, in different posts).

But it has been repeatedly and happily conceded: No one that could be described as an "actual runner" or "serious runner" could possibly run a four minute mile. Absolutely ridiculous claim. Demonstrably impossible.

Because you guys are just sooooooo honestly discussing this.
 
Thermal said:
Would you consider your long distance pace to be "running for your life"? That's the context of the speed Arbery was running at, of course. My argument is he was trotting along pretty slowly to cover a couple football fields in 8 minutes.

Now that I think of it, I guess that might be why some here are crucifying me over the 4 min mile thing. They checked my math, and realized Arbery was in fact trotting along very slowly, not "running for his life", so an attack against the irrelevancy is needed to change the subject.

The funny part is, I am giving Arbery much more credit than other posters. I say he was a strong and confident guy, who was not intimidated by the butterballs in their pick 'em up trucks. Others want to paint him as timid and fearful. Made up claims of guns being out "the whole time" are put forth (unevidenced).
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Look at you, being all generous by painting the murder victim as someone stupidly toying with the multiple armed assailants like he thought he was Jeane-Claude Van Damme rather than treating him as a normal person who would be afraid of 3 armed guys chasing him.
 
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Thermal said:
Yep. And high schoolers are dropping "that kind of time". Not all, and not everywhere, but they are demonstrably doing so.

No more questions from you though, till you catch up on your own unevidenced claims. Start with your proof that the guns were out in view "the whole time".
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At what point in the video you are using for evidence can you see Travis without a gun in his hand?
Eta: and I'm asking that as a question to demonstrate exactly how much I respect your "no more questions from you" stance.
 
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Thermal said:
Would you consider your long distance pace to be "running for your life"? That's the context of the speed Arbery was running at, of course. My argument is he was trotting along pretty slowly to cover a couple football fields in 8 minutes.

?
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Depends on how far I think I need to run. If my pursuers are in a pickup then I might think that the pursuit is a long one and set off at an appropriate long distance pace.

200 yards (two football fields) in 8 minutes is less than one mile an hour. Are you sure that's how far he travelled in that time ?
 
Belz... said:
I don't know why this irks you so much. You asserted that people still in school can do that time today, when in fact only a very small proportion of competitive runners can make that time. Why is it so difficult to just admit that you were wrong without getting all pissy about it? Is your ego that fragile?
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Read more carefully. What pisses me off is the dishonest argumentation. Serious runners do run four minute miles. But it doesn't matter in context. What matters is that Arbery was moving slowly, not "exhausted from running for his life".

But rather than talk about whether or not that has any merit (and it is of course debatable), posters want to harp about irrelevancies, congratulating themselves over a half-assed gotcha, and the quality of the discussion erodes.

For my part, I'm using the available data on the distance he covered in what time to estimate how fast he was moving, running scared versus casual trot, as something to consider regarding how seriously he took the threat at the time.
 
Belz... said:
I don't know why this irks you so much. You asserted that people still in school can do that time today, when in fact only a very small proportion of competitive runners can make that time.
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To a first approximation, NO serious runners can break a 4 minute mile. And that is even among serious runners.

To be more precise, the number of serious runners that can run that fast is below 1 in a thousand, more likely below 1 in 100K.

For internationally competitive runners, it might be 1%. Those who specialize in that distance are probably 100% at this point able to break the barrier (although the distance is 1500 meters - a 4 min pace is 3:44 at 1500 m; there were 10 runners who could do that in the 2019 NCAA championships; maybe the winners of the 800m or the 5K could pull it off, but certainly not that many; only the best of these go on to be internationally competitive)

This gives us an idea of how many people in the US could pull off a 4 min mile. Considering competitive runners outside of college, we are talking about a couple of dozen.

It's a silly discussion. There are people who can run a 4 min mile. There are more who can get it done in 5 min. For regular runners, 6 min miles are very fast. For running hobbiests, 8 min miles are good. For casual runners, 9 - 10 min miles are typical. For out of shapers like me, I'm happy to be able to run at all for 1 mile.

I need to get back in shape (The Don always makes me feel inadequate)
 
The Don said:
Depends on how far I think I need to run. If my pursuers are in a pickup then I might think that the pursuit is a long one and set off at an appropriate long distance pace.

200 yards (two football fields) in 8 minutes is less than one mile an hour. Are you sure that's how far he travelled in that time ?
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We know from the GBI investigation that Arbery doubled back multiple times so the killers had to turn around to continue the chase, so no, I don't think Thermal is any more accurate with the 200 yards claim than he is with his claims of running times, both his own and that of what would be expected of an actual runner.
 
The Don said:
Depends on how far I think I need to run. If my pursuers are in a pickup then I might think that the pursuit is a long one and set off at an appropriate long distance pace.
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The argument is that he was running for his life in fear of being shot and run over. I don't think anyone would have the luxury of rationing out how quickly they got the hell out of there.

200 yards (two football fields) in 8 minutes is less than one mile an hour. Are you sure that's how far he travelled in that time ?
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I am specifically not saying "200 yards", and using the more imprecise "couple football fields", because the upthread map is only loosely scaled. I'm also confident it would not have been a consistent pace, with stopping and turning around to whittle the average rate down, which accounts for the time lags.

But I do think it shows that this was no frantic sprint for survival. He was toying with them, I think, and staying +/- on their asphalt turf.
 
wareyin said:
At what point in the video you are using for evidence can you see Travis without a gun in his hand?
Eta: and I'm asking that as a question to demonstrate exactly how much I respect your "no more questions from you" stance.
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Travis' truck is shown on surveillance video chasing Arbery around. No gun in sight. You still need to explain where the minimum 3' long shotgun was while he drove the pickup, too. Think a little about steering wheels and stuff.

You don't get to change the subject when you are called on BS. I'll wait.
 
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