Yoga still banned in Alabama.

[BobTheCoward]

It reminds me a bit of another religious adjacent practice.... alcoholics anonymous. They say atheists can do that, too.

 

[dann]

WOW! I wouldn't have thought that there was a person alive today who still thought that fallacious argument actually proved anything.

Good for you that you wouldn't have thought so. What exactly do I think that it proves, in your line of thinking?

It is the very definition of the "affirmation of the consequent" fallacy. It is generally used by Republicans or other people who are determined to keep marijuana a criminal offense and don't care how stupid the argument they use to support their position.

So that you confuse what I wrote somehow makes you think of "Republicans or other people who are determined to keep marijuana a criminal offense." Now all you need to do is show where I argued for keeping marijuana a criminal offense, then you may have a point other than your strawman. Ignoring the rest of my post really helps you there, doesn't it?!

 

[Checkmite]

I'm not sure what you mean about the Sanskrit names. I use words like "Wednesday" and "Thursday" without any intended promotion of Norse mythology.

Wednesday and Thursday are English words. They're derivative, but you do not use words like "Wodenstag" and "Donnerstag" that the modern words have been derived from because you are not from the culture and time period that originated them. And - for the third time, these references are just that - references. The days were named after those gods for the same reason that we name the planet Jupiter after, well, Jupiter, without considering that name actually religiously meaningful.

I'm a total outsider to the world of yoga but have the impression (here in the UK) that yoga classes are generally just exercise classes devoid of mysticism. That may not qualify as proper yoga in your part of the world but I can't see the dishonesty in calling it either "ancient" or "exercise".

Modern yoga-as-exercise purveyors may have watered down or left the religious connections unexplained but they clearly don't want to be entirely rid of them - which, yet again, is why they stick to the Sanskrit naming conventions and refer to it as "an ancient form of exercise": that kind of talks brings the woos and their money. Actual ancient yoga was a set of purely religious rituals that had nothing to do with physical exercise, and modern 'exercise'-yoga is a 20th-century invention, not ancient by any means.

Also, this is a news story about a US state. The article itself suggests yoga proponents are trying to compromise with state legislators by offering to leave out "chanting" and the requirement for students to use Sanskrit language to greet the teacher. It's great if "yoga is different in the UK", but if that's the case those details should be enough for you to infer that your impressions or experience with yoga as practiced in the UK aren't really relevant. (Forgive me if this comes off as sounding rude or flippant, which isn't my intention)

 

[Elagabalus]

...If you like piña coladas
And gettin' caught in the rain
If you're not into yoga
If you have half a brain...

The. End.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Wednesday and Thursday are English words. They're derivative, but you do not use words like "Wodenstag" and "Donnerstag"

I am now

 

[PhantomWolf]

There is no First Amendment protection for instruction in public schools. Quite the opposite. Of all the possible rational and informed objections you could raise, you chose one that isn't.

There is only no protection if there is actual religious instruction occurring. That begs the question that Yoga is in fact teaching Hinduism.

If it isn't, then banning it because it's not the right religion, i.e. Christian, but rather some, assumed, foreign religion would be a violation.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

I do yoga. I had no idea it was controversial in skeptic circles.

Like, obviously I know that many woo-types champion it, but it's so easy to just ignore them and do the stretching videos. I also don't care how "ancient" it is or isn't. I just ignore that stuff.

Meditation is good, too. I'm personally unable to clear my mind, but I think it's a good thing to try to do.

Where's the fun in that? You sound like my grandma. Stop being mature and jump on the outrage machine with the rest of us!

 

[TheGoldcountry]

It reminds me a bit of another religious adjacent practice.... alcoholics anonymous. They say atheists can do that, too.

I happen to be an atheist who goes to AA occasionally.

I like going for the people, but it most definitely is a religion, 100%, despite what they say. It's like going to a Baptist church for the singing and dancing, for me. Though not as fun.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Wednesday and Thursday are English words.

Okay, bad example. The Japanese names of moves in judo haven't been anglicised; the names are labels and people continue to use them. We don't invent new labels for Egyptian pharaohs either even though the original names have explicitly religious meanings.

Actual ancient yoga was a set of purely religious rituals that had nothing to do with physical exercise, and modern 'exercise'-yoga is a 20th-century invention, not ancient by any means.

That, I did not know.

Also, this is a news story about a US state. The article itself suggests yoga proponents are trying to compromise with state legislators by offering to leave out "chanting" and the requirement for students to use Sanskrit language to greet the teacher. It's great if "yoga is different in the UK", but if that's the case those details should be enough for you to infer that your impressions or experience with yoga as practiced in the UK aren't really relevant.

Granted. It depends absolutely on what they mean by "yoga", and it sounds as if they do not mean what people hereabouts mean.

 

[dann]

Wednesday and Thursday are English words. They're derivative, but you do not use words like "Wodenstag" and "Donnerstag" that the modern words have been derived from

Isn't it more likely that Thursday derived from the Scandinavian Torsdag = Thor's day? Thursday: Thor's day (Wikipedia) Thor being the god of thunder = torden (in Danish), Donner (in German).

 

[Darat]

I have already rebutted the "goodbye" argument. The earliest origins of "goodbye" were as a culturally-prescribed religious reference. Yoga originally was, and in many places still is, a bona fide religious ritual.

And I know some people who still use “goodbye” as a religious phrase. No one has said that yoga is not in some places still a religious ritual, what has been said is that in many places it is no more religious than Pilates. You are trying to use your personal experience as a measure for all places, and it doesn’t work.

 

[GlennB]

Even if you want to insist that yoga "in the UK" is completely divested of all religious trappings (I would argue it cannot be, if it's insisting on still using Sanskrit names for everything), the website is still blatantly lying by then calling it "an ancient form of exercise". Surely you are capable of detecting this dishonest, alternative-medicine style framing.

It isn't, or at least it often doesn't. I took a yoga class for several months some years back and we used purely English expressions for the positions and moves - seated forward bend, staff, plank, forward bend etc etc.

 

[psionl0]

Good for you that you wouldn't have thought so. What exactly do I think that it proves, in your line of thinking?

So that you confuse what I wrote somehow makes you think of "Republicans or other people who are determined to keep marijuana a criminal offense." Now all you need to do is show where I argued for keeping marijuana a criminal offense, then you may have a point other than your strawman. Ignoring the rest of my post really helps you there, doesn't it?!

You are the one who argued that the "gateway fallacy" is not a fallacy and repeated the prohibitionists' favourite "statistic".

If you weren't trying to prove that marijuana is a "gateway" drug (and therefore should remain a criminal offence) then why would you repeat an argument that everybody knows is totally fallacious?

 

[dann]

If I were trying to prove that, why would I stress that there is no determinism involved? (And why would you leave that part out when you quoted me?) Why would I include tobacco smoking? Based on my observations, and I've observed plenty, people who never smoked tobacco were less likely to start smoking marijuana, and also based on my observations, people who started using drugs were usually already marijuana smokers.

I don't claim determinism, and I don't claim causation, just correlation. It is possible that people who smoke tobacco and people who smoke marijuana are just more likely to become substance abusers in the first place, which would mean that they might have started using other drugs anyway. And for the sake of the test subjects, I wouldn't recommend randomized double-blinded tests to determine if it is the case.

And the same thing goes for yoga: It is possible that people who are into yoga are just more prone to get involved with (other?) new-age stuff. I don't know.

So you can stop your stupid accusations: I never argued that marijuana or yoga should be outlawed. However, I would recommend any principal or school board to make sure that their yoga teachers practice the non-religious kind of yoga.
And I would recommend everybody to avoid both tobacco and marijuana. That they should also stay away from hard drugs goes without saying.

 

[psionl0]

The fact remains that you used exactly the same fallacious argument that prohibitionists (who are trying to prove that marijuana is a gateway drug) are using. You never denied a causal link until you were called out.

It is hardly any wonder that you would get linked to the conservative lunatic fringe if you make their arguments for them.

 

[LondonJohn]

It isn't, or at least it often doesn't. I took a yoga class for several months some years back and we used purely English expressions for the positions and moves - seated forward bend, staff, plank, forward bend etc etc.

I've done both Hatha and Vinyasa yoga for going on 15 years now, with a wide variety of teachers. And it's pretty much the norm in these practices of yoga (both of which would be considered relatively "serious" yoga) for Sanskrit terms to be used either wholly or partially throughout - for example, downward-facing dog is "adho mukha shvanasana". And I've had some teachers who've ended a class with meditation in Sanskrit; even one who sang and rang bells!

But I know for sure that I - and, I believe, everyone else in the classes I've attended - have never considered that this is anything to do with religious instruction. I'd go further and say I've never even considered it to be "spiritual" in the sense of relating to some higher power.

By contrast, I've always seen the classes I attend as guided exercise, stretching, mobilisation and meditation. In that order. (And anyone who thinks yoga is necessarily some sort of namby-pamby new-age stretchy-touchy-feely thing for middle-aged women and yummy mummies..... has never been to a Vinyasa Flow class). Without doubt I feel mentally relaxed and cleansed after an hour of this sort of yoga. It's one of the (many) reasons why I enjoy it and find it personally beneficial. But I never, ever feel like I've been to some sort of religious communion.

Interesting story: a few years after I started yoga, I happened to go to a class in West London which was also attended by the then Tottenham Hotspur goalkeeper Brad Friedel. We'd exchange a few words after the class, and one day he was talking about how he thought his teammates might benefit from doing this type of yoga - but that he'd been laughed at whenever it came up in conversation that he was into yoga. The instructor and I (and another yogi) suggested to him that he should go straight to the top and pitch it to the then Head Coach Harry Redknapp. and the instructor offered to come in and talk about it and its benefits. Fast forward a couple of months..... and yoga had become part of the playing squad's weekly schedule. I believe that at least three other Premier League football clubs have since introduced yoga too. Including Leicester City, in the two years prior to their wildly-improbable Premier League title in 2016. Coincidence...?

 

[LondonJohn]

Though on the flip side...

... I remember my mother telling me that while her (Roman Catholic) had resolved to rent its adjacent church hall out to non-church groups and societies to raise funds, the priest had vetoed a request from a yoga group. On the grounds that it concerned "religious instruction which ran contrary to the mission and teachings of the Church"

So, swings and roundabout....

 

[Checkmite]

And I've had some teachers who've ended a class with meditation in Sanskrit; even one who sang and rang bells!

But I know for sure that I - and, I believe, everyone else in the classes I've attended - have never considered that this is anything to do with religious instruction. I'd go further and say I've never even considered it to be "spiritual" in the sense of relating to some higher power.

Well what did you imagine that ringing bells and "meditating in Sanskrit" rather than English had to do with physical exercise, if you insist that this part of it wasn't woo silliness?

 

[theprestige]

There is only no protection if there is actual religious instruction occurring. That begs the question that Yoga is in fact teaching Hinduism.

If it isn't, then banning it because it's not the right religion, i.e. Christian, but rather some, assumed, foreign religion would be a violation.

I don't think so. The First Amendment right to free speech doesn't apply to teachers in public schools. They do not have the right to teach whatever curriculum they want. This extends even to religious instruction.

 

[catsmate]

In Alabama? **** yes. Probably most of every district school board is at least a majority flat-earthers.
I’ve lived there. They are every bit as ignorant and uneducated as any stereotype would suggest.

Which may be related to the 16% functional illiteracy rate.