IDF General Sued For "Targeted Killings"

[demon]

Let`s be very clear here.
The IDF born in ethnic cleansing always has to confront the fateful question "should we or should we not strike against the civilian population"' because the civilian population is the enemy against which it was forged.

So I ask you Zionists. "Where do you live?" And when you come out with this nonsense about civilian targetting I say get real.

Oh sorry the really telling line is "...I knew exactly what I was doing". Are you one of those not serious people or are you one of those people who know exactly what it is they're justifying, really justifying, ******** aside?

 

[demon]

Israeli police "tied Palestinian to galloping mule"

A Palestinian man, said to have been last seen in the custody of Israeli border police, died after being found wounded and comatose beside a mule to which he had apparently been tied and dragged along a dirt road.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article334816.ece


Isn`t this how Henry VIII's men murdered the Abbot of Glastonbury when expropriating his monastery? So the IDF/Israelli Boarder Police clearly are returning to medieval methods, as well as medieval levels of hatred.

Yes, doing their jobs well as some would say.

 

[Skeptic]

A Palestinian man, said to have been last seen in the custody of Israeli border police, died after being found wounded and comatose beside a mule to which he had apparently been tied and dragged along a dirt road.

"apparently"... "said to have been"...

Right.

I'll file this in my "israeli atrocities" file, right next to the "mossad poisoned the Nile to make Egyptian girls sexually aroused" canard and sadwiched between the "settlers attacked palestinian with hot irons" and "IDF committed genocide in Jenin" fables.

 

[David Swidler]

[/lurk]
Uh, demon, that story from a couple of weeks ago ended up being much ado about nothing. Unfortunate, yes, but nothing more than coincidence. Within a couple of days the forensics people reported that he probably died as a result of an accident with the mule after being released from police custody. Got his leg caught in the harness or something like that, and the animal kept going.

It helps to live in the area where these events happen if you really want accurate news; the international media tend to let go of a story once it leaves the realm of the sensational, and that leaves many people with erroneous information. I live in Jerusalem, so the local press did report the follow-up.

But I'd like to add a few more points, while I'm at it.

1. Demon, your point of view is appreciated and necessary, but there's no need for all that vitriol. Or the distortion. The IDF does not engage in ethnic cleansing, full stop. If they did, you'd think that in all these decades there would be a marked decrease in the Palestinian population, but the opposite is true, and in spades. In just a few years Jews will be a minority between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean. Gee, how did that happen if all this time Israel has been systematically getting rid of Palestinians?

(Hint: it's not true)

2. This one is directed at Orwell, as well. Perhaps he'll find me more "credible" because I work for the New Israel Fund, a staunchly left-wing philanthropic organization (google 'em if you're interested) that cannot be accused of pro-IDF sentiments. I have not served in the IDF, so I can't be accused of that bias. So:

Everything webfusion has posted so far in this thread is true. I may disagree with his politics (who'm I kidding; when's the last time two Israeli citizens agreed on anything?), of which I know little, but I cannot accuse him of dishonesty or bias regarding his posts in this thread.

I've spoken to my Arab coworkers regarding the IDF, and while they detest it, they do not accuse the Israeli military of ethnic cleansing. It's one thing to make a tragic miscalculation under the pressure of combat, as webfusion has described, and another to say that such events are IDF policy in the Occupied Territories. The latter is BS, pure and simple.

Hanukkah sameah, web. I'd be happy to discuss anything but politics with you in person, should you happen to be in J-town.

 

[Skeptic]

[/lurk]
Uh, demon, that story from a couple of weeks ago ended up being much ado about nothing. Unfortunate, yes, but nothing more than coincidence. Within a couple of days the forensics people reported that he probably died as a result of an accident with the mule after being released from police custody. Got his leg caught in the harness or something like that, and the animal kept going.

Gee, another of Demon's "proof of IDF atrocities" goes ppppffffffffttttttttttt.

What a surprise.

I agree with much of what you say, David, except for the claim that there is a "need" for views such as Demon's. Who needs yet another vicious antisemite?

 

[demon]

"Uh, demon, that story from a couple of weeks ago ended up being much ado about nothing. Unfortunate, yes, but nothing more than coincidence. Within a couple of days the forensics people reported that he probably died as a result of an accident with the mule after being released from police custody. Got his leg caught in the harness or something like that, and the animal kept going."


Been there, bought the T Shirt, drunk the wine.
If it had been a westener we might be having a proper investigation.

 

[David Swidler]

That was the outcome of a proper investigation. It's the Western press that didn't follow through; the local authorities conducted the requisite forensic tests and detemined that his death was unrelated to his arrest.

 

[gnome]

Funny that you think I'm "championing" something. All I'm doing is pointing out that Israel is not the squeaky clean victim of evil, evil Palestinians that Zenith-Nadir, Webfusion, Mycroft and Skeptic would like to make us believe it is. I don't champion anyone here. I believe that Israelis have the right to security. I just don't believe that their right to security must be obtained with massive human rights abuses. By the way, it's not "disagreement" I have trouble with, it's the manner how the "israeli-right-or-wrong" types disagree that gives me the screaming willies.

And the funny thing is that I agree with you 100%... so how is it we're at odds in this thread?

I don't have to agree with webfusion's opinions on the "legitimacy" of palestinian nationality, in order to listen to his stories with a critical ear and make up my own mind if he's giving good information. Information and opinion are separate. And (here's my opinion for what it's worth) if webfusion has a bias, it's not so massive that I expect deliberate factual lies.

 

[demon]

Fair play David....
What is you thoughts on the other "proper investigation" I mentioned earlier, I guess they came to the wrong conclusion too.

Happy Holidays (I mean that by the way, no double meaning implied)

 

[zenith-nadir]

Palestinian children wearing masks and carrying wooden guns, march during a rally of the Islamic group Hamas to mark the 18th anniversary of its foundation, in Gaza City Friday Dec. 23, 2005. (AP Photo/Adel Hana)​

So Palestinians just have this desire to inflict suffering on Israel. Every demand they make is only really motivated by a desire for to better carry out terrorism. It`s what they all are after all. Just terrorists. Is this mind numbing racist crap really supposed to be some kind of an argument?

So I am a "mind numbing racist" because your statement lumps "all Palestinians" into your strawman argument that I believe "Palestinians just have this desire to inflict suffering on Israel". Well Demon ol' pal you know and I know the members of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades are not "all Palestinians". So your strawman is null and void, sorry.

But I draw your attention to the photo above Demon and ask you what kind of society...errr, sorry..."political party" dresses children up in black KKK masks with wooden guns and exploits them...ahhhh, my mistake...parades them down main street to celebrate the anniversary of a terrorist organization? If you're stuck for an answer I open the question to anyone at JREF.

While your thinking about it Demon look into the eyes of the children in that picture. I feel that one picture summarizes everything about the Palestinian terror group HAMAS that most people need to know. But hey that is just my "racist" opinion.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Dec. 24, 2005 23:49

Israel will implement its "no-go" policy in the northern Gaza Strip as soon as weather permits the IDF's state-of-the art technology to accurately identify and fire on anything that moves in the area, a senior government official said Sunday.

The official's comments came after Prime Minister Ariel Sharon convened a special meeting of top security officials to discuss last week's Kassam attacks on Ashkelon.

Sharon called for the implementation of the buffer zone policy designed to keep terrorists launching Kassam rockets from entering the areas in northern Gaza where they have been able to fire on the southern outskirts of Ashkelon.

The official said that when the policy is implemented, the Palestinians would be warned that anyone who entered the two-kilometer no-go zone would be fired upon.

Towhich Orwell will eventually claim the IDF targets Palestinian civilians in this Israeli attempt to stop Kassam attacks by Palestinian terrorists who are allowed to use Palestinian civilian areas for firing positions.

 

[demon]

ZN, it`s "demon" by the way not "Demon" , I know you aren`t one for accuracy.
By the way, how`s King David doing,
Take it easy mate...I mean it.

 

[zenith-nadir]

ZN, it`s "demon" by the way not "Demon" , I know you aren`t one for accuracy.

So you actually have no answer to:

But I draw your attention to the photo above Demon and ask you what kind of society...errr, sorry..."political party" dresses children up in black KKK masks with wooden guns and exploits them...ahhhh, my mistake...parades them down main street to celebrate the anniversary of a terrorist organization?

OK. I'm cool with your nonanswer.

By the way, how`s King David doing...

The Tel Dan Stele dated from the 7th and 9th centuries BCE has inscriptions in Aramaic which so far translate into "of the House of David" and "king of Israel". But how's your ancient Aramaic these days demon, with a small "d"? Perhap you could translate the Tel Dan Stele for JREFers so that we could have a definitive translation once and for all...here's a picture to help you.

Take it easy mate...I mean it.

Contrary to popular belief I kinda admire that you seem to truely care about the Palestinians. I just have a problem about the way you go about it.

 

[webfusion]

denied..

The Independent (in their typical fashion) fails to offer the official response of the Israelis. Well, maybe they do, if I pay them 1-pound Sterling for the rest of their article!

The Israeli Justice Ministry spokesman, Yaakov Galanti, said: "Our best investigations indicate that there is no connection between the activity of the Border Police and the injury and death of the individual (Mahmoud Shawara)."

So, the story headline could just as well read "Man Accidentally Falls Off Mule And Is Dragged To His Death"
=====================================


gnome says: "if webfusion has a bias, it's not so massive that I expect deliberate factual lies."

I do have a bias. I admit it. I am also a partisan. (not a 'hack' however).
My postings here are, for the most part, designed to keep the record straight.
Case in point, the above reply to demon.

Another case in point, the reply I made to Orwell about IDF TARGETING CIVILIANS --- see his post #244 of this previous thread
He keeps saying the B'Tselem organization is more credible than me.
I called him on this particular incident, based on the testimony of the mother of Muhammad Diriyah.
I evaluated the evidence, and came to the following conclusion:
The IDF did not "target" Mr Diriyah. In fact, based on the eyewitness account, it is probable the IDF didn't even cause his death.

Orwell was invited to comment, and kept repeating the mantra that he finds B'Tselem more credible than me.
Here is the testimony:

• On Sunday, 11 April 2004, at about 10:00 P.M., I was saying evening prayers. While I was praying, I heard about ten explosions of stun grenades and loud sounds of gunfire.After about five minutes, the sound of shooting and grenades grew louder, and bullets came flying into the house. You can still see the bullet marks on the walls.

What does this indicate? Was the IDF intentionally shooting at the Diriyah family home, were they 'targeting' them?

Hint -- The correct answer is no. Let's move on...

• (IDF troops knocked on the door and demanded entry) Muhammad went to open the front door...I did not hear any shooting...we saw Muhammad lying on the ground by the entrance to the house. The strange thing is that I did not hear any shots. Maybe the soldiers used a silencer.

What does this indicate? Try this scenario on for size:
A Palestinian sniper on one of the surrounding rooftops, opens fire as soon as the light streams out of the open door, illuminating the soldiers standing there, and Mr Diriyah catches a bullet. IDF soldiers never use silencers on their assault rifles, so that opinion is invalid. Any shot(s) fired from a distance away outside from a sniper would likely not be heard by people inside the house (especially if there were kids crying, as Khairiya, the elderly grandmother, testifies in the account -- "The children were crying and shouting hysterically.")

You decide...

Now, back to our regularly-scheduled discussion.

 

[zenith-nadir]

The parts about Khairiya Diriyah's testimony to B'Tselem I find the most troubling are:

I heard one of the soldiers say in Arabic, “We’ve killed a terrorist, we’ve killed a terrorist,” but I did not hear any shooting.

How often to IDF soldiers communicate to other IDF soldiers in Arabic? But let's let that one fly...

Khairiya Diriyah also testified she heard:

about ten explosions of stun grenades and loud sounds of gunfire. I woke Muhammad and told him that the army was in the village.

So she is capable of discriminating between "stun grenades" and "frag grenades" yet she then testifies that after IDF soldiers shouted in Arabic:

“Terrorist! Open the door!”

She and her son Muhammad:

went to open the front door. I followed him.

So she places herself at the front door when:

Muhammad moved me away from the door with his hand and told me that he would open it. I turned around and went to get the children and my daughter-in-law.

She now places herself, by her own testimony, in the house, at which point:

I heard one of the soldiers say in Arabic, “We’ve killed a terrorist, we’ve killed a terrorist,” but I did not hear any shooting.

So if I take Khairiya Diriyah's testimony to B'Tselem at face value then I am amazed that she can discriminate between "stun grenades" and "frag grenades" somewhere in the village but she didn't hear Muhammad Diriyah being shot a couple of meters away at her own front door.

These types of inconsistencies are common at B'Tselem and therefore the "testimonies" there should be met with a degree of skepticism.

 

[Orwell]

[/lurk]
2. This one is directed at Orwell, as well. Perhaps he'll find me more "credible" because I work for the New Israel Fund, a staunchly left-wing philanthropic organization (google 'em if you're interested) that cannot be accused of pro-IDF sentiments. I have not served in the IDF, so I can't be accused of that bias. So:

I have not accused Webbie of bias because he serves in the IDF. I have accused Webbie of bias because of a few hateful comments he made about Palestinians and because of his general attitude towards criticism of Israel.

Everything webfusion has posted so far in this thread is true. I may disagree with his politics (who'm I kidding; when's the last time two Israeli citizens agreed on anything?), of which I know little, but I cannot accuse him of dishonesty or bias regarding his posts in this thread.

Well, thanks. Maybe he isn't "dishonest", in the sense that he isn't lying... But you better define what you mean by "bias", since I believe him to be, well, biased.

I've spoken to my Arab coworkers regarding the IDF, and while they detest it, they do not accuse the Israeli military of ethnic cleansing. It's one thing to make a tragic miscalculation under the pressure of combat, as webfusion has described, and another to say that such events are IDF policy in the Occupied Territories. The latter is BS, pure and simple.

I never accused the IDF of ethnic cleansing. Funny that so many people seem to think that the phrase "targeting of civilians" implies ethnic cleasing! Anyway, that's someone else's strawman, not mine. I have been saying that IDF soldiers (not all of the IDF) have intentionally shot at civilians, killed civilians, maimed civilians, and destroyed property belonging to civilians. I have been saying that this "accidental killing of civilians during military operations" argument does not explain a large number of the events described in the links I have provided (in another thread): it does not square with eyewitness accounts, casualty lists, and descriptions given by human rights organisations. I never said that this was official IDF policy, but I did advance, based on refusenick quotes, that the higher ups in the IDF don't care when individual soldiers, or a few units, behave like this.

 

[webfusion]

bias or "bias" ?

My own statement, directly above --- "I do have a bias. I admit it. I am also a partisan. (not a 'hack' however).
My postings here are, for the most part, designed to keep the record straight.
Case in point, the above reply to demon.

Bias. "Favoring one side or group"
I favor my fellow Israeli citizens, be they Jew, Muslim, Circassian, Christian, Ba'Hai, Rastafarian, Armenian, Samaritan, whatever... who live in peace and abide by the rule of law in our small unique nation.
I do not favor the Palestinian Islamic Fundamentalists who proclaim their fealty to the destruction of Israel and glorify terror, outside of the bounds of normal civilized behavior.
I have no hatred towards "the Palestinians" as such -- as mycroft says, referring to "Palestinians" in general is merely a semantic shortcut. I have no problem with the formation of a demilitarized and disarmed Palestinians State as a neighbor, in peaceful and fair cooperation with Israel. I think the Palestinians deserve that, and would benefit tremendously from such a relationship, as would we.
Look at the 30,000 tourists visting Bethlehem (in the occupied territories) this Christmas --- what possible problem is there for Israel to have the Palestinians host visitors, and develop their own tourist trade as an independent nation? None that I see... in fact, Israel has offered to help them open a major international airport in Gaza, and build a high-speed rail link from there to Hebron, on the outskirts of Jerusalem, while continuing to recognize the Islamic Trust (WAQF) being in full control of the (Jewish) Temple Mount! That is what we Israelis are trying to get the Palestinians to achieve, that is what we hope for.

I have made these views of mine known several times on these forums. I bear no animosity towards the Palestinians, as long as they proceed to reject and condemn the Islamic Fundamentalists who sow terror worldwide.

How does all that translate to "hating" the Palestinians?

If they wish to be a nation whose purpose is to breed terroristic insanity, then I will do everything within my power to stop them, and support efforts by my government to do so.

================================
Orwell says (his mantra) -- "I have been saying that IDF soldiers (not all of the IDF) have intentionally shot at civilians, killed civilians, maimed civilians, and destroyed property belonging to civilians."

The original topic on the other thread cited the proposition that the "IDF Targets Civilians" and not "IDF soldiers have shot civilians" or "IDF bulldozes and destroys property belonging to civilians"----- how you keep failing to make this distinction and keep confusing the two concepts is really amazing.

 

[Mycroft]

Mycroft:
"Who's ideology is one of perpetual warfare? Is it the ideology of those who envision and work towards a two-state solution? Or is those who can’t imagine sovereignty without weapons?"

Mycroft, I expect Israel to disarm immediatly then. What kind of ridiculous double standard is this?

If you believe a state without guns is not a state at all, then by your own definition your expectation is for Israel to simply cease to be.

As a pro-Israeli supporter, the only condition I would lay on the Palestinians for them to have their own state would be for them to give up hostility against Israel.

By contrast, the conditions you would lay on Israel to have peace with the Palestinians is that Israel cease existing, and you have the audacity to claim that it's Israel who's ideology is one of perpetual warefare.

 

[webfusion]

What about the OP?

orwell; "I have not accused Webbie of bias because he serves in the IDF"

You have said that my service in the IDF is "alleged" and you do not believe my claim that I am a member of that force at all. When faced with evidence (and pretty good evidence, I may add) you proceeded to say that it matters not, and even if (!) I am telling the truth, you discount and reject it because I am biased in favor of Israel. Orwell, that is not critical thinking, that is woo.

Here I am, with a thread about the IDF killing civilians and a court trial derived from same, and the question is: Should the IDF Chief of Staff Ya'Alon face a trial for authorizing artillery units under his command to TARGET outgoing fire directed at Israel from Lebanese terrorists?

Is that targeting proper?
This is the exact same situation faced by Israel today, as Gaza is now a launching-ground for rockets fired at Israeli towns and farms and villages.

What do you think Israel should do?
What would you like for your government to do, if your cities were under rocket attack from a neighboring hostile island?

 

[Mycroft]

[/lurk]
Uh, demon, that story from a couple of weeks ago ended up being much ado about nothing. Unfortunate, yes, but nothing more than coincidence. Within a couple of days the forensics people reported that he probably died as a result of an accident with the mule after being released from police custody. Got his leg caught in the harness or something like that, and the animal kept going.

It helps to live in the area where these events happen if you really want accurate news; the international media tend to let go of a story once it leaves the realm of the sensational, and that leaves many people with erroneous information. I live in Jerusalem, so the local press did report the follow-up.

Hi David, thanks for de-lurking. I’ve read about the NIF before, and believe it’s a respectable organization with laudable goals, and I think it speaks well of you to give it your support.

Largely it’s been reading so many stories like this that later get debunked that’s caused me to be so skeptical about so many reports of atrocities by the IDF or Shin-Bet. Then when I see how a certain aspect of the anti-Israel left still clings to these reports even after they’ve been debunked, it puts to question (in my opinion) their motivations.

This guy’s death is a tragedy turned into black propaganda. When I learn of stories like this, I can’t help thinking of the recent decision of the Abbas government to give pensions to the families of people killed in the conflict and how that policy encourages this kind of myth-making.

A guy who dies in a tragic accident with a mule is just a dead guy, but if it’s claimed that he was killed by Shin-Bet, then he becomes a martyr, the story gives Israel a black-eye, and his family gets a pension.