[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

[Sherkeu]

But even more worryingly, we've got basically no idea what the long-term health consequences are for preventing puberty. This is an off-label use. We really don't know if this is even safe to do. Obviously it's not killing patients quickly, but who the hell knows if it's going to cause serious complications in 30 or 40 years. We're screwing around with deep biological processes which we only have a very rudimentary understanding of.

The main puberty blocker used is called Lupron, initially used to slow prostate cancer, but later approved in 1993 for "Precocious Puberty" in children and used off-label for other conditions, such as 'short stature' or endometriosis.

You may find this article of interest (it is not about transgender uses) from Kaiser Health News:

Drug used to halt puberty in children may cause lasting health problems
https://www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lupron-puberty-children-health-problems/

Most of the concern is for bone issues (joints, teeth, discs, osteopenia, or osteoporosis). A lot of it is from anecdotal stories of women who were given Lupron as young girls (some who connected the dots when they found each other on social media) but the article cites relevant studies over the last 2 decades that make some conflicting conclusions. No clear consensus.

Even so, these risks might be tolerable compared to the long-term impacts on those kids going through puberty before they are 8yo, but most of the prescriptions aren't used for that rare condition.

 

[Belz...]

It's another area of vocabulary that is often misunderstood and used inconsistently, and sometimes the inconsistency is just equivocation.

Some people use "transition" to refer only to medical treatments (hormones, puberty blockers, surgery, etc.) while others include "social transition", which is what you have described.

Making words meaningless is one of the ways one "wins" an argument.

 

[Belz...]

Sexual orientation is how one feels about the relationship between one's genitalia and that of others.

That's a pretty inaccurate and dumb way of putting it, just to "win" an argument.

Sexual orientation is a LOT more than that. Come on.

 

[Belz...]

You can bring it up, as long as you don't suggest trying to alter a person's identity.

Why not? Is we're trying to deal with dysphoria, why would this option NOT be at least considered?

 

[Collin237]

Is it even possible to misdiagnose gender dysphoria in children?

Of course it is. Why do you even ask?

 

[theprestige]

: confused : Of course it is. Why do you even ask?

I was asking Earthborn, whose position on this is currently unknown to me.

 

[Collin237]

That's a pretty inaccurate and dumb way of putting it, just to "win" an argument.

Sexual orientation is a LOT more than that. Come on.

Of course there's a lot more to what sexual orientation means in real life. I was referring to xjx388's "deep in the psyche", which I repeated in quotes.

 

[xjx388]

Sexual orientation is how one feels about the relationship between one's genitalia and that of others. If that's "deep in the psyche", then so is the feeling of one's genitalia that it refers to.

I am not parsing this at all.

Sexual orientation refers to the type of people you are sexually attracted to. I think the research shows that this is pretty much hardwired into you and that you don't have a choice about this attraction. You are attracted to men or women or both or neither. This is not something that can be counselled out of you. It is, to use LJ's words, "deep in the psyche."

It seems to me that many posters here are trying to say that gender identity is very much the same and I don't think that's true -or least, there is no good evidence that this is true. It's not true that identity itself is hard-wired -our sense of self goes through many changes as we age, experience things and reflect on how we feel about those experiences. If gender identity isn't hardwired, then it may be amenable to therapy if the gender identity causes gender dysphoria.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I don't think we are in disagreement as both are essentially true, one for the physical body parts and chromosomes, and the other for an inborn female 'essence'.
This means "I was born in a male body" and "I have always been female" are not contradictory- to their viewpoint.* I don't think many trans women are of the 'girl dick' variety but those types do get a disproportionate amount of attention! (and they are so very obnoxious)

*at least for the subset of AMAB trangender persons with gender dysphoria who identify on the female side of a m/f binary.

It's hard to tell. There may not be all that many of the "ladydique" variety... but on the otherhand, that cohort are the ones harassing lesbians for not being interested in having sex with their pensies, they're the ones who coined the term "cotton ceiling", they're the ones attacking female humans on International Women's Day, they're the ones flooding feminist sites and feminist threads on IWD with trans selfies, and insisting that the focus be placed on them. They're the ones posting pictures of themselves with barbed-wire wrapped baseball bats talking about killing TERFs, and telling female humans to shut up. They're the ones threatening and harassing female gatherings until they get deplatformed. They're the ones vandalizing rape shelters and threatening the owners of feminist bookshops. And they're the ones harassing any female human on social media who expresses concerns about their policies, or who disagrees that they are women. They're the ones who literally attacked and beat up a 60yo woman at a women's gathering. They're the ones who send death and rape threats to female humans.

So even if they're not a large portion of the trans community... they're a dangerous and damaging portion of it.

Hell, they even threaten and harass transgender people who disagree with their policies.

 

[Elaedith]

Evidence for puberty blockers use very low, says NICE

 

[Emily's Cat]

What do you see wrong about those statements?

Remember that providing consent necessarily includes the possibility of declining it also.

Currently, 12 year olds in the US are considered unable to provide consent to sex, which makes sex with them statutory rape by definition. Generally speaking, most people do not think that 12 year olds are capable of making a reasoned decision with respect to sex, and are highly likely to be susceptible to coercion and inappropriate pressuring.

Additionally, in the US, Canada, and most of Europe, the age of consent is between 14 and 16 already, so this recommendation is of necessity referring to people younger than that in the developed world. In the developing world, there's not necessarily an age of consent at all, and children - particularly young girls - are raped on a regular basis already.

I assumed they meant adolescents having sex with other adolescents. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

This is a situation in which I would need to see it explicitly spelled out that they are referring to adolescents having sex with other adolescents. As written, it would grant the right of 60 year olds to have sex with 12 year olds.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Ah good. Using one of a handful of outlier examples to try to prove a principle. That's the kind of subjective logic I can buy into!

Seriously, dude?

You made an assertion that it is an innate, infelxible element of a person's psyche, and that gender identity is fixed.

I asked you about de-transitioners.

You insinuated that they're gender fluid.

I brought up a well-known example and asked if you thought Bell is lying or is mistaken about her gender identity.

You respond with snark.

My conclusion is: It only takes one counter-example to disprove an assertion of the sort you made. There are *many* detransitioners out there. And the numbers are growing.

Your assertion is false.

 

[xjx388]

I don't know why they jumped right into puberty blockers and surgery for treatment of gender dysphoria in children when there is no good evidence that it's the best treatment ETA: or even a good and effective treatment. I'm going to guess it has to do with an association with conversion therapy for homosexuals and a fear of outrage from the trans-activist groups.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Sexual orientation is how one feels about the relationship between one's genitalia and that of others. If that's "deep in the psyche", then so is the feeling of one's genitalia that it refers to.

I disagree. Sexual orientation describes which sex one is attracted to, and whether or not that sex is the same as one's own. It isn't about how one feels about that attraction. In the past, there were a great number of homosexual people who were full of self-loathing and were disgusted by their body's reaction to other sexed bodies. They felt *bad* about being attracted to people with the same genitalia as they had. There are *still* closeted homosexuals today who feel a sense of self-hatred about their sexual orientation.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I've heard bisexual people describe themselves as being attracted to people, not sexes. I don't think you can characterize this as a shift in orientation. But I'm open to the idea.

There have been experiments done demonstrating that exogenous hormones applied to particular parts of the brain can sometimes result in a change in sexual behavior, and cause for example, male mice to present with female mating behaviors. This correlates with a similar observation wherein some people who take cross-sex hormones have experiences a reversal of their prior sexual orientation.

Of note, however, is that the orientation is fixed unless acted upon by exogenous hormones.

 

[Elaedith]

Sexually Dimorphic Bodies: A Production of Birth Certificates

If we stop registering sex at birth, we can smash the binary!

 

[Emily's Cat]

Sexually Dimorphic Bodies: A Production of Birth Certificates

If we stop registering sex at birth, we can smash the binary!

I... don't... even...

Registering a newborn’s gender/sex on the birth certificate is usually seen as a mere formality that reflects a natural state of affairs. This article, however, shows that the registration of gender/sex does something else than record naturally given sex differences in bodies; it actually produces and shapes bodies to develop in a way conformant with understandings of sexual dimorphism. Sexed bodies are therefore not pre-discursive and static objects, but they are constantly in the process of becoming, influenced by socio-legal procedures, including gender/sex registration. By analysing the effects of registering the legal gender/sex on birth certificates and the change of gender markers thereof in various jurisdictions, in particular Australian states and territories, the article aims to show how bodies of intersex as well as endosex cis and trans persons are made into what they are expected to be: sexually dimorphic. It concludes that legally assigning a gender/sex has intrinsically violent effects on bodies, something that could be avoided by eliminating the public registration of gender/sex.

That is the most idiotic, unscientific, woo-based, fantasist nonsense I've read in a very long time.

 

[Sherkeu]

I don't know why they jumped right into puberty blockers and surgery for treatment of gender dysphoria in children when there is no good evidence that it's the best treatment ETA: or even a good and effective treatment. I'm going to guess it has to do with an association with conversion therapy for homosexuals and a fear of outrage from the trans-activist groups.

I was listening to trans advocates (all dysphoric MtF) on a program and they personalized transgender kids to their own past experiences. ie If only I had been given early medical treatments, how much better my life would be now!". That's fine. The issue with this type of vicarious advice is that most of the kids will desist- and likely be non-dysphoric gay men and women. For some, it really is a temporary phase in development that resolves itself during or after puberty.


One paper about problem parents who may have reservations about some of the recommendations for their child, or take things slower suggest these inactions are signs of 'gaslighting' their kids or "identity abuse".
https://www.researchgate.net/public...ractions_with_parents_of_transgender_children

Finally, it is important to note that the clinical literature itself is complicit with the forms of cisgenderism outlined above that make gaslighting possible. Specifically, literature on “desistance” and “persistence” with regard to transgender children – literature which has been prominent and which is consistently used to question the validity of transgender people’s experiences – provides parents with what are perceived as legitimate grounds to question their child’s gender.

Notice they aren't saying the literature is in error but that it leads to skeptical parents - which is very very bad.

Read the whole thing to be amazed at the chutzpah of these clinicians.

 

[p0lka]

I like that this thread continues.
Over time the anachronisms could be an important resource for people.

 

[d4m10n]

Sexually Dimorphic Bodies: A Production of Birth Certificates

That is the most idiotic, unscientific, woo-based, fantasist nonsense I've read in a very long time.

Ever since the 2017 grievance studies affair^WP I've always wondered if there are any straggling publications just waiting to pop out. This one looks a "bit sus" as the kids say.