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[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

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It is actually fundamentally impossible for a person a) to consider themselves to be pro-trans-rights, while simultaneously b) taking an unequivocal & absolute position that transmen should not be allowed to use the men's changing rooms

And why not?

I mean, it sounds like you're saying that in order to be pro-trans one must accept ALL claims and demands from trans activists, no matter how irrational or counter-productive they may seem. That can't be right.

So here's a question: why is it necessary to allow trans people in to the restrooms of their choice if one wants to be pro-trans? I would like a very precise answer, here. No inference, no subtle insults or moving of goalposts or any other logical fallacy. A clear, concise answer, please.
 
Firstly, it sounds like you're still unaware that transgender people don't actually have a choice about their identity.

Woah, woah. Back up a bit.

What you are saying here is in stark contradiction with trans-activist claims regarding what gender identity is i.e. that it is entirely based on how a person feels, which can absolutely, in many instances, be a matter of choice, or counscious action.

It sounds like what a transphobe would say!! :eek:
 
Not to start a discussion, but I really dislike the use of 'assign', here. Sex is objective, there is no 'assignment' needed.

That could be "assign" meaning "to place a task upon", referring to one's genitals metaphorically downloading a program to one's brain.

But anyway, a PC flipped around is still a PC.
 
Hence why, if that is indeed what the bill says, I'm sure ST won't have any problems refuting the science it appeals to.
It is indeed what the bill says; the bill effectively prohibits the "watchful waiting" approach. Refuting the science it appeals to fairly trivial.

It makes the same misinterpretation of the available evidence as Eleadith did, claiming that since most gender nonconforming children desist, the treatment for all of them is unnecessary:
(3) For the small percentage of children who are gender nonconforming or experience distress at identifying with their biological sex, studies consistently demonstrate that the majority come to identify with their biological sex in adolescence or adulthood, thereby rendering most physiological interventions unnecessary
Imagine there were studies that proved that a majority of COVID patients recover without needing a ventilator, and people used that evidence to argue that ventilators are therefore unnecessary and should be banned.
 
I'm going to post this and go because I have neither the time nor inclination to get mired in this particular cesspit at the moment, but I've just come across this research and it's relevant so I'm posting it.

In 2017 the Police Foundation - an independent, non-partisan organisation that researches the police - looked into instances of sexual assault in public bathrooms in areas which had non-discrimination laws which allow transgender women to use women's bathrooms. They found that none of the instances of sexual assault carried out in those places over those time periods were carried out by men posing as women - transgender or cisgender - in order to enter the women's bathrooms.
 
I'm going to post this and go because I have neither the time nor inclination to get mired in this particular cesspit at the moment, but I've just come across this research and it's relevant so I'm posting it.

In 2017 the Police Foundation - an independent, non-partisan organisation that researches the police - looked into instances of sexual assault in public bathrooms in areas which had non-discrimination laws which allow transgender women to use women's bathrooms. They found that none of the instances of sexual assault carried out in those places over those time periods were carried out by men posing as women - transgender or cisgender - in order to enter the women's bathrooms.

Bathroom defenders have a solution in search of a problem. It's almost as if such concern trolling is simply a pretext for outright animus towards trans people.
 
I'm going to post this and go because I have neither the time nor inclination to get mired in this particular cesspit at the moment, but I've just come across this research and it's relevant so I'm posting it.

If you had done so you would've seen we've been through this strawman result already. The "men are going to declare themselves trans to sexually assault women in bathrooms" is a strawman of the TRA creation. The actual concern people have been expressing in this thread was things like voyeurism/exhibitionism, mostly in locker rooms, but also such as placing cameras in toilets.
 
I'm going to post this and go because I have neither the time nor inclination to get mired in this particular cesspit at the moment, but I've just come across this research and it's relevant so I'm posting it.

In 2017 the Police Foundation - an independent, non-partisan organisation that researches the police - looked into instances of sexual assault in public bathrooms in areas which had non-discrimination laws which allow transgender women to use women's bathrooms. They found that none of the instances of sexual assault carried out in those places over those time periods were carried out by men posing as women - transgender or cisgender - in order to enter the women's bathrooms.

Personally I don't entirely buy the idea that such laws would create a massive flood of poseurs trying to assault women in the restroom. I might create some cases, but I'm not entirely sure it would be in any way substantially higher than it is currently. It sounds like fear-mongering by the right, more than anything else. That doesn't mean that women's fears of allowing males in restrooms is entirely irrational. It only needs to happen a few times for the possibility of it happening to them to make them feel insecure in public restrooms.
 
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It makes the same misinterpretation of the available evidence as Eleadith did, claiming that since most gender nonconforming children desist, the treatment for all of them is unnecessary:

Imagine there were studies that proved that a majority of COVID patients recover without needing a ventilator, and people used that evidence to argue that ventilators are therefore unnecessary and should be banned.

The question is how to separate that small subgroup of gender dysphoric children who will persist from the vast majority who won't, until a method to do so is known it's questionable to block puberty given that the administration of puberty blockers itself basically sets a persistence outcome. Doesn't mean they should be prohibited though, and the 18-year cut-off in the bill is arbitrary, as outcomes diverge at puberty and not at 18 years.
 
Bathroom defenders have a solution in search of a problem. It's almost as if such concern trolling is simply a pretext for outright animus towards trans people.

I must admit, I have spent some time over the last year looking for cases, and it's true. I had assumed that allowing transwomen access to women's spaces would give cover to other males who wanted to commit assault or voyeurism, and such incidents are almost non-existent. That surprised me.

There have been a couple such incidents, but only a couple.

When I searched news headlines for incidents of voyeurism, the vast majority were one of two types. Either a male planted a camera in a women's bathroom or locker room, or a male used his cell phone in a unisex facility to clandestinely snap photos over or under a stall divider wall. I think I ran across two incidents where there was a connection to transgenderism.

Males definitely seemed to want photos. Almost all of the arrests involved a camera, usually on a cell phone.


(Note: Lest anyone think I'm fixated on female victims and ignoring the importance of males, I never ran across any accounts of any female voyeurs. This shouldn't surprise anyone.)
 
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Although, speak of The Devil,

https://www.fox19.com/2021/03/30/po...tly-recording-customer-target-bathroom-stall/

Story from Ohio on Monday. Someone, not known whether they were a male or a female, surveillance video uncertain, but was wearing sparkly flip-flops, using a cell phone to take video in a woman's bathroom at Target.

What's the point of anecdotes? The only data, as far as I know, on this came from the UK which found a significant increase in the rate of sexual harassment in unisex locker rooms for public pools than in single-sex ones. Which is only relevant to some, but not all, proposals on this point. As with many things in this debate, there seems to be a lack of data on this particular point.
 
pervs gonna perv. How is this relevant? They don't know who this person is, and there's nothing to indicate they are trans.

Hmmm....

After careful consideration, I will defer the answer to others that I suspect will have something to say about it.
 
Hmmm....

After careful consideration, I will defer the answer to others that I suspect will have something to say about it.

Caveman is right, anecdotes are largely pointless anyway. Your point before about the lack of meaningful data to substantiate the "trans bathroom menace" is the salient one.
 
All of these studies were conducted when 'watchful waiting' was the standard treatment, as that is still the standard treatment. 'Watchful waiting' does not exclude affirmation and social transition.

No, watchful waiting explicitly delays affirmation (of cross-sex identification), traditionally until puberty. Once affirmation or social transition occur, the 'waiting' is finished. This includes not using puberty blockers before age 12 (although there is a serious lack of evidence base concerning puberty blockers altogether).

The gender affirmation approach requires that the child's stated identity is immediately affirmed without waiting. Cantor has described this very well in the article linked to before, along with extensive analysis of how the AAP's reasons for rejecting watchful waiting in favour of gender affirmation entirely misrepresented the evidence to fit an ideologically-inspired conclusion.

And that is not a conclusion you can draw from these studies, because there is no group of children with severe genderdysforia who are denied affirmation.

Children under watchful waiting were denied affirmation before puberty. Pre-pubertal social transition is relatively recent. To the extent that some children in the later studies may have received affirmation or transition earlier, this would lead to underestimating the percentage of children who would desist....as I said before.

Perhaps you should point out where in the study it says that, because all I can find about such a claim is that "future prospective studies ... may shed some light on this question".
In the logistic regression analyses reported on p586 where persistence/desistance was the binary outcome. I did get one thing mixed up - only one of the clinical measures (Gender Identity Questionnaire) became non-significant as a predictor of persistence in the multivariate regression (for the combined group and for girls). Social role transition but was not a significant predictor for girls in the multivariate analysis but was the strongest predictor for boys and a significant predictor in the combined group. Where transition is a significant predictor in the multivariate analysis it predicts persistence independently of its association with the other predictors.

And specifically mentions that it should not mean children should not transition: "clinical management of children with GD in general should not be aimed to block gender-variant behaviors."
Not blocking gender-variant behaviours is not transitioning.

The key issue is to make sure the child doesn't think that they need to be the other sex in order to engage in gender-variant behaviours. This is complicated because children to not have any sophisticated distinction between sex and gender. If clinicians try to encourage children to accept their biological sex, the child may interpret that as pressure to be gender conforming, and activists will brand it conversion therapy. Hence the watchful waiting approach does not aim to steer the outcome in either direction.

None of the studies you linked to show this, or even attempt to study this.

The fact that virtually all children put on puberty blockers go on to transition (meaning it is not actually 'buying time' but is actually the first stage of medical transition) is not shown in these articles, no. That has been shown elsewhere, including in the data from the Tavistock that mysteriously went missing for years then coincidentally resurfaced days after the recent court case was over.
 
Caveman is right, anecdotes are largely pointless anyway. Your point before about the lack of meaningful data to substantiate the "trans bathroom menace" is the salient one.

Data to substantiate the "self-ID for locker rooms is safe" is equally lacking, don't go for an argument from ignorance either.
 
The question is how to separate that small subgroup of gender dysphoric children who will persist from the vast majority who won't, until a method to do so
That method is called "watchful waiting".

is known it's questionable to block puberty given that the administration of puberty blockers itself basically sets a persistence outcome.
There is no evidence for this. It is impossible to draw this conclusion from the available evidence, as the children in these studies are unlikely to have received puberty blockers unless they were deemed highly likely to persist.
 
That method is called "watchful waiting".

There is no evidence for this. It is impossible to draw this conclusion from the available evidence, as the children in these studies are unlikely to have received puberty blockers unless they were deemed highly likely to persist.

The burden of evidence is that the method chosen to deem an individual highly likely to persist, and hence prescribe puberty blockers, is indeed effective at separating those who are likely to persist from those who are not. Can you show such evidence? As far as I know, none such exists. It would show up as the group not receiving puberty blockers having about 100% desistance rate as opposed to the prior probability of about 80%.
 
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