[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

[Belz...]

I don't think that many people are particularly convinced by the TERF narrative that being pro-trans means they are anti-women.

The salient point here isn't that pro-trans is anti-women; it's that being blindly pro-trans supports policies that are argued to put women in harm's way. And since you're ignoring the argument, I can certainly understand the accusation, even if I don't fully agree with it.

 

[Belz...]

FYI, a lot of adult female humans also find it offensive. Female is an adjective, describing a sexed entity.

I can understand that. My point was simply that in English the terms are used more liberally; they're more-or-less mainstream, while you certainly don't want to call a French-speaking woman "femelle" if you don't want to get punched in the nuts.

 

[Emily's Cat]

For this to be problem solved, you'd need to show that trans women don't mind being called "male" and trans men don't mind being called "female".

I'm not sure that follows. Whether they mind it or not, sex is a factual state. I mean, maybe I 'mind' being called white, but it that doesn't change my skin color. Maybe I 'mind' being called short, but that doesn't make me any taller.

 

[Belz...]

Indeed. We need only change it from a "girls'" sport to a "minor aged female human being" sport and all will be well.

MAFHUB, for short.

 

[caveman1917]

The watchful waiting method, which sometimes involves prescribing puberty blockers to allow these children more time to make a decision, would be forbidden by the AR law.

The AR law prohibits any hormonal intervention, full stop, including puberty blockers that might allow a patient, their parents, and their doctors to take the time to make an informed decision. That's not watchful waiting, and even by your own claim it is out of step with the international consensus on standard of care.

That may be so, like I said I hadn't checked the law nor does it particularly interest me as I don't live there. But your claim which I responded to was specifically that the affirmation approach was a consensus in the medical community, and that just ain't true.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

That may be so, like I said I hadn't checked the law nor does it particularly interest me as I don't live there. But your claim which I responded to was specifically that the affirmation approach was a consensus in the medical community, and that just ain't true.

Ok, let's clarify.

Medical care that includes an option of trans affirmation is the standard of care, either outright or as part of a watch and wait approach. The AR law excludes that possibility. Puberty blockers are explicitly forbidden in the law, as well as other standard of care approaches for trans patients.

 

[theprestige]

You're just interested in cherry picking of science by progressives? ; )

Honestly I don't think they're even very interested in that. Framing this as a medical and scientific question puts some limits on what does and doesn't qualify, who is and isn't an authority, and what should or should not be the proper course of treatment.

As undoubtedly* transphobic as the Arkansas legislature is, their bill is actually on fairly sound rational footing. Debating them on medical and scientific grounds would be counter-productive to the cause.

 

[xjx388]

I can understand that. My point was simply that in English the terms are used more liberally; they're more-or-less mainstream, while you certainly don't want to call a French-speaking woman "femelle" if you don't want to get punched in the nuts.

Well, I've always wanted to be punched in the nuts by a French-speaking woman . . .

 

[theprestige]

Ok, let's clarify.

Medical care that includes an option of trans affirmation is the standard of care, either outright or as part of a watch and wait approach. The AR law excludes that possibility. Puberty blockers are explicitly forbidden in the law, as well as other standard of care approaches for trans patients.

To the best of your knowledge, under what medical circumstances should a watch-and-wait approach be replaced with a trans affirmation approach, for prepubescent patients?

Would you be opposed to this bill if it were amended to include an exception for such circumstances?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Maybe if this were the medical sub forum.

Whether or not this clearly bigoted law is unconstitutional is very much a pertinent issue, both for the ACLU and a skeptics forum.

I'm rather on the fence about referring to this as "bigoted" when the approaches being proscribed are essentially experimentation on minors that results in permanent health damage.

I personally prefer a slightly less rigid approach, which allows for exceptions granted for children who have persistently and consistently identified as the opposite sex since early childhood (prior to the onset of puberty). I do think that in some few cases, blockers and transition are the right treatment approach. Just not nearly as many cases as we're seeing at present. There are too many (and a growing number of) post-treatment desisters who are displeased with the care they received, and who think that they should NOT have been transitioned.

 

[theprestige]

Well, I've always wanted to be punched in the nuts by a French-speaking woman . . .

Does Jessica Yaniv count?

 

[Meadmaker]

You're just interested in cherry picking of science by progressives?

Would that be cherry picking of cherry picking?

 

[Emily's Cat]

No, I'm not interested in the cherry picking of science by reactionary freaks.

Gender affirming treatment is the standard of care by the medical community. I have no reason to believe a bunch of right wing lawmakers managed to out-science the medical consensus.

Have you bothered to read any of the information about the Tavistock case and the subsequent investigation? The "standard of care" is neither standard nor particularly careful.

 

[Emily's Cat]

The classics will always be in style.

Wow. I mean, I expected you to at least put up a pretense of not being sexist.

 

[theprestige]

I personally prefer a slightly less rigid approach, which allows for exceptions granted for children who have persistently and consistently identified as the opposite sex since early childhood (prior to the onset of puberty).

How would that even be reliably measured? How would you go about distinguishing the child's "valid lived experience" from confounding factors like the parents' wishful thinking? Or things like gender stereotype nonconformity?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I don't think that many people are particularly convinced by the TERF narrative that being pro-trans means they are anti-women. Given how cozy TERFs often are with overtly misogynistic elements of the reactionary right, I don't see them making much progress on this front in the near future.

Being pro-trans doesn't necessarily mean being anti-woman.

Being pro-trans when it's clearly at the expense of women, and to the harm of women, means that it's anti-woman.

 

[caveman1917]

Ok, let's clarify.

Medical care that includes an option of trans affirmation is the standard of care, either outright or as part of a watch and wait approach. The AR law excludes that possibility. Puberty blockers are explicitly forbidden in the law, as well as other standard of care approaches for trans patients.

Then you should have no problem refuting the science used in support of said bill.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You can't find your own race by yourself; the closest you can get to that is looking in a mirror.

However, you can find your own gender simply by meditating on how it feels to have certain body parts.

I am genuinely curious how that would work. Can you elucidate on how it feels to have a body part that you do not actually have?

 

[theprestige]

Then you should have no problem refuting the science used in support of said bill.

Other than the one very obvious problem.

I for one have no objection to trans-affirming care whenever medically necessary - for minors or adults.

 

[caveman1917]

I personally prefer a slightly less rigid approach, which allows for exceptions granted for children who have persistently and consistently identified as the opposite sex since early childhood (prior to the onset of puberty).

There is no relation between the "strength" of the symptoms in childhood and the probability of persistence/desistence in puberty. Nor is there any other known way to separate dysphoric children who will persist from those who will desist, other than waiting it out till puberty and seeing what happens.