[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

[TurkeysGhost]

If the ACLU is still unsure about the constitutionality of regulating medical treatment for minors, then they're probably not qualified to be an authority on this or any other question of lawfulness.

Lol ok. I forgot about the "anything goes for minors" provision of the law.

The ACLU understands that children are still protected by the civil rights act of '64. I don't see them claiming it's a slam-dunk case, but in light of the Bostock SCOTUS decision, it's clearly a law that could be swatted down as unlawful sex-discrimination. Hence their indications that they will challenge it in court.

 

[caveman1917]

Maybe if this were the medical sub forum.

No it's general. At least it's supposed to be.

Whether or not this clearly bigoted law is unconstitutional is very much a pertinent issue, both for the ACLU and a skeptics forum.

But if the science is correct then how can it be bigoted? And if it is bigoted because the science is not correct, then isn't the question of whether the science is correct or not prior to the question of determining the bill bigoted or not?

Then there's also the point that the constitutionality of a law is only relevant to the country where the law is to be applied, whereas the correctness or otherwise of the underlying science applies universally - and it is still an international skeptics forum.

 

[xjx388]

Maybe if this were the medical sub forum.

Whether or not this clearly bigoted law is unconstitutional is very much a pertinent issue, both for the ACLU and a skeptics forum.

I don't think it's unconstitutional on it's face. It might be unconstitutional to ban interventions in adults, but I think the science the bill lays out makes a good case as to why there is a compelling government interest in preventing minors from having life-altering procedures done when they are not of legal age to consent to such procedures themselves.

Hell, there's still a lot of controversy about whether or not bariatric surgery should be performed in minors. This is several degrees more serious alteration than that.

 

[theprestige]

Maybe if this were the medical sub forum.

Whether or not this clearly bigoted law is unconstitutional is very much a pertinent issue, both for the ACLU and a skeptics forum.

Have you read the scientific and medical reasoning given in the bill? What parts of it are clearly bigoted, in your opinion?

 

[Emily's Cat]

They're fighting for recognition of their own existence. And they're fighting on two fronts: against society, and against parts of themselves. Nobody gives them real support. All they're told is "call yourself the other sex and you'll feel better". And eventually they accept it.

You know, I don't really grok the hyperbole on this. They're not fighting for recognition of their *existence*. We're all aware that they exist, they are real actual human beings. Hell, we're all aware that gender dysphoria *exists* and that some people have it.

It gets very tiresome having this constantly framed as an existential crisis where this group of people is on the verge of complete annihilation and extermination, where the slightest misstep in giving them whatever they want is going to drive hordes of children to violent suicide.

It's entirely possible for rational people to disagree with some of the policies that are being asked for, while still supporting many others, and still feeling sympathy for those dealing with such a condition.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Because that's what they've been told they need.

That's... an answer. Not a helpful answer, but it is an answer.

In case the initial question was too vague... what is the rationale behind it?

 

[Emily's Cat]

The mental health field can only deal with conditions involving belief.

That's not true. Bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, borderline personality disorder, and many others aren't "beliefs". They may frequently present as exaggerated or false perceptions, with significant separation from reality, but they aren't properly referred to as "beliefs".

When doctors in other fields show them evidence that being transgender is not a belief, they cry "I'm being harassed".

What evidence, from which doctors?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Have you read the scientific and medical reasoning given in the bill? What parts of it are clearly bigoted, in your opinion?

No, I'm not interested in the cherry picking of science by reactionary freaks.

Gender affirming treatment is the standard of care by the medical community. I have no reason to believe a bunch of right wing lawmakers managed to out-science the medical consensus.

 

[Emily's Cat]

The brain is the most important component of sexuality, but also the organ in which the difference is least significant. Having a brain with a gender opposite the rest of the body is considered by society as an affront to Western Civilization's obsession with putting every topic into one or the other side of a "war" between science and religion.

A male should be able to identify as having a brain that seems to be female, and the rest of the body that is male. But Western-influenced society insists they make further claims -- and then punishes them for it.

So... mind-body duality and the supremacy of a gendered soul then? Claiming that brains are "gendered" separately from the sex of the body is pretty much woo.

 

[Emily's Cat]

https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1376649059096788999

ACLU indicates they will sue the state should the governor sign this anti-trans bill into law. Surely the first of many bigoted anti-trans bills to pass in red states as trans people become the punching bag for conservative culture warriors.

Gay bashing is so last decade, trans bashing is the new hotness.

Luckily, female-bashing is ALWAYS in style!

 

[Emily's Cat]

Shouldn't that be "their" health and rights, not "our"?

The person leading this portion of the ACLU push is themselves transgender.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Luckily, female-bashing is ALWAYS in style!

The classics will always be in style.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I don't think most trans activists are trans. I think most are cis people trying to be as woke as possible so as to avoid being labeled a transphobe themselves.

And here comes my personal bias: Why the **** aren't they worried about being labeled misogynists?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

If the ACLU is still unsure about the constitutionality of regulating medical treatment for minors, then they're probably not qualified to be an authority on this or any other question of lawfulness.

I don't see the ACLU stating that regulating minor's medical care is illegal, they are advocating that doing so in a unlawfully discriminatory way is illegal.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

And here comes my personal bias: Why the **** aren't they worried about being labeled misogynists?

I don't think that many people are particularly convinced by the TERF narrative that being pro-trans means they are anti-women. Given how cozy TERFs often are with overtly misogynistic elements of the reactionary right, I don't see them making much progress on this front in the near future.

 

[caveman1917]

Gender affirming treatment is the standard of care by the medical community. I have no reason to believe a bunch of right wing lawmakers managed to out-science the medical consensus.

No it isn't, there is no consensus and the standard of care in most places is watchful waiting. I now agree with theprestige that you're being intentionally dishonest.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

No it isn't, there is no consensus and the standard of care in most places is watchful waiting. I now agree with theprestige that you're being intentionally dishonest.

Major medical organizations such as the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Medical Association, the Endocrine Society and the American Psychiatric Association, among others, support gender-affirming care for trans youth and have opposed measures to limit it.

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/arkansas-passes-bill-ban-gender-affirming-care-trans-youth-n1262412

Is there any medical authority that supports universal prohibition of trans affirming care for minors?

 

[Emily's Cat]

In English, maybe. But some language either have a single word to mean both "man" and "male", and some, like French, find the use of male and female to refer to humans to be offensive.

FYI, a lot of adult female humans also find it offensive. Female is an adjective, describing a sexed entity. I'm not "a female", I'm "a female human". The use of sex-based terms as nouns is something frequently done with livestock, where their agency and their feelings about it are irrelevant. Frequently, we, as arrogant humans, don't even give those animals the agency to select their own mates, but make the choice for them and force it upon them.

I'm not breeding stock, nor are any other human beings.

I tolerate it out of necessity in this discussion, but only because the appropriate term for a female human has been appropriated and redefined in a way that removes any meaning from it. I cannot now refer to myself and other female humans in a respectful manner without also being forced to include in that group male humans who have adopted the term for themselves.

 

[Lithrael]

Call me anything you like just don't call me late for dinner.

I'm guess I'm still a pretty dedicated tomboy, however archaic that term is, still with the frogs and the dirt and the jeans and the turning over of rocks. I'm still sort of uncomfortable in a dress and still a little bit tickled if I get misgendered in public. But I'm still also definitely a woman and pretty feminist. And also very supportive of all the trans stuff and of everyone who is still workinng on figuring out the best approaches for everyone. It's messy and it's emotional. But I don't have any problem with both hoping that women exactly like me can continue making progress in getting a bigger share of the social and professional pie (and sure, fancy shoe collecting ladies too), and also feeling like trans women are not the enemy in that particular struggle in general.

I can't bring myself to be worried about the nasty, overreaching trans contingent until I meet one, even one, in real life. There's lots of vile people to be found on the internet. Are they out there in the real world in numbers that make me sit up and pay attention? Well, I meet real actual racists and misogynists and yeah, transphobes, all the damn time. Sllightly fewer people bigoted against gay folks (the ones I run into have mostly switched over to complaining about people with tattoos? Not sure what that's about). I've met exactly one angry socialist and one angry black identity type guy.

I've met none gross trans people.

 

[theprestige]

I don't see the ACLU stating that regulating minor's medical care is illegal, they are advocating that doing so in a unlawfully discriminatory way is illegal.

Begs the question that this is unlawfully discriminatory. Have you read the scientific and medical rationale for this law? Or have you only read the ACLU's tweet?