Non-binary identities are valid

[d4m10n]

I doubt it. That would be horribly ineffective. The rubric doesn't even require you identify with non-binary pronouns.

All that needs to be true is that people are socially or otherwise required to use neutral pronouns in order to shift the window of discourse from two genders to more than two.

 

[Upchurch]

All that needs to be true is that people are socially or otherwise required to use neutral pronouns in order to shift the window of discourse from two genders to more than two.

This wouldn't do that. Zig already admonished me for saying it's about asking patients about their pronouns.

The problem, apparently, has something to do with nursing students being forced to identify they're own pronouns to patients, along with their name, when introducing themselves. So far, it's only been those who insist that only binary genders exist that have expressed having a problem with people providing their pronouns. If that's the case, the nursing students who have a problem informing patients of their pronouns aren't likely to be non-binary. It probably isn't too far of a stretch to guess that they aren't trans either.

 

[Steve]

I'm not triggered. But I am incredibly tired of the ridiculous assertions of everything being tantamount to slavery. Yes, you had farting in there too... but still there's no rational reason to bring slavery into this discussion in any way.

You certainly seem triggered to me. And this post merely confirms that. The comment in question was in no way "tantamount to slavery". Yes, a different example could have been used, but the chosen example was perfectly valid, as an example only.

And, for the record, I did not have anything "in there too".

 

[Upchurch]

You certainly seem triggered to me. And this post merely confirms that. The comment in question was in no way "tantamount to slavery". Yes, a different example could have been used, but the chosen example was perfectly valid, as an example only.

Also, EC took it completely out of context. My comment was in relation to how society "decides" things are right or wrong, that no one group of people in the society gets to make the decision, and it certainly isn't put up to a vote. It's more complex than that. I chose my examples from the big and important to the silly and mundane.

 

[Steve]

Also, EC took it completely out of context. My comment was in relation to how society "decides" things are right or wrong, that no one group of people in the society gets to make the decision, and it certainly isn't put up to a vote. It's more complex than that. I chose my examples from the big and important to the silly and mundane.

That was all readily apparent to me. I could not figure out how the "don't talk about slavery" rant was relevant, other than to completely disregard context.

 

[Matthew Best]

The problem, apparently, has something to do with nursing students being forced to identify they're own pronouns to patients, along with their name, when introducing themselves.

OK, you can have your own pronouns, but if you're going to start changing determiners to verbs someone is going to draw a line.

 

[Upchurch]

OK, you can have your own pronouns, but if you're going to start changing determiners to verbs someone is going to draw a line.

DAMMIT! I even changed a similar mistake earlier in the post. A good proofreader, I am not.

 

[Distracted1]

I'm content to let it unfold as it will, partly because I think it is heading toward a more ethically desirable outcome. Making arguments and having discussions is fun, but we're not going to change the course of history on this small corner of the internet.

I see our understanding of gender heading along the similar paths as our understanding of sexuality and race and, to a lessor extent, perhaps religion. Complaining and moaning or even advocating for it isn't going to have an effect on how our culture evolves. But, as I've said in other threads, I don't think talk of non-binary/trans people being confused or predators or just plain nonsense is going age well over time.

I could be wrong. It's not up to me.

"Race" as a construct seems to often be used in comparisons and examples when discussing gender identity.

It makes me curious. How would it be (or would it not be) substantively different for me to identify as a black man (and insist my identity as such be validated) from identifying as a Woman and insisting that others validate that claim?

Is that any different?
If I wake up tomorrow, and really, really feel like I am a black man- who is to say that I am not (other than bigots, obviously)?

 

[xjx388]

This wouldn't do that. Zig already admonished me for saying it's about asking patients about there pronouns.

The problem, apparently, has something to do with nursing students being forced to identify they're own pronouns to patients, along with their name, when introducing themselves. So far, it's only been those who insist that only binary genders exist that have expressed having a problem with people providing their pronouns. If that's the case, the nursing students who have a problem informing patients of their pronouns aren't likely to be non-binary. It probably isn't too far of a stretch to guess that they aren't trans either.

I would say the issue is far beyond what this group of nursing students is getting graded on. The problem is the growing and increasingly vocal movement for societal change that most people don't think is necessary and aren't comfortable with.

The movement is, IMO, asking for absurd things: Announce your pronouns, use other people's preferred pronouns, etc -and not only that but, do it or face consequences. This forum will infract you. The nursing school will lower your grade. You could get fired for harassment. It's against the law in NY for "covered entities" to not use the preferred pronoun.

I'm all for rational calls for common courtesy. I will comply, willingly, with any reasonable request for accommodation. But I am not supportive of legal and administrative sanctions for failling to use a potential multitude of made up words that have no basis outside the inner feelings of a few select people.

 

[arthwollipot]

I'm not even going to rant about the improper use of the word "trigger" in this thread.

 

[Upchurch]

"Race" as a construct seems to often be used in comparisons and examples when discussing gender identity.

It makes me curious. How would it be (or would it not be) substantively different for me to identify as a black man (and insist my identity as such be validated) from identifying as a Woman and insisting that others validate that claim?

Is that any different?
If I wake up tomorrow, and really, really feel like I am a black man- who is to say that I am not (other than bigots, obviously)?

The change in social understanding of race I was referring to was the evolution of racial stereotypes over the last... I don't know, 150-200 years? To my knowledge, there has been no cultural change in the understanding of what race is*.

What I said is that those cultural changes followed similar paths, not that the changes themselves were similar.

(I think it'd be interesting to see a hypothetical human society that thought of race as something as fluid or internal as gender or sexuality. I'd read that novel.)

I would say the issue is far beyond what this group of nursing students is getting graded on. The problem is the growing and increasingly vocal movement for societal change that most people don't think is necessary and aren't comfortable with.

What are you basing that on? "That most people don't think is necessary or aren't comfortable with", I mean?

Pew Research found that roughly half of Americans were comfortable with using gender-neutral pronouns, if asked to do so. Actually, the numbers slightly favored the "comfortable" side.

That was three years ago. If I were a bettin' man, I'd guess the needle has only swung further to the "comfortable" side since then. But, I also haven't been able to find a more recent Pew study.



* eta: Now I'm questioning myself, a bit. I want to do some reading about attitudes toward the Italians, Irish, and Jews in the 19th century or so. I know they were not liked, but were they considered non-white or just foreign, alien, different, etc?

 

[xjx388]

What are you basing that on? "That most people don't think is necessary or aren't comfortable with", I mean?

Pew Research found that roughly half of Americans were comfortable with using gender-neutral pronouns, if asked to do so. Actually, the numbers slightly favored the "comfortable" side.

That was three years ago. If I were a bettin' man, I'd guess the needle has only swung further to the "comfortable" side since then. But, I also haven't been able to find a more recent Pew study.

I'm comfortable using non-binary pronouns but I mean specifically, "they," or using the existing pronouns non-intuitively. I doubt there is polling on whether or not people would be comfortable using several different new pronouns. I did find this however, which seems to indicate that even among LGBTQ+ youth, the new pronouns are not very popular.

 

[Upchurch]

I did find this however, which seems to indicate that even among LGBTQ+ youth, the new pronouns are not very popular.

That's not what that says. It says those new pronouns aren't used very often. It says nothing about whether people like, dislike, or are comfortable with them.

This only serves to prove arthwollipot's earlier point and runs counter to your concerns. Right now, you know one non-binary person. You'd have to get to know 25 times that number to have a shot at knowing one who doesn't use some combination of he, she, or they. (I'm simplifying for brevity.)

 

[arthwollipot]

I'm comfortable using non-binary pronouns but I mean specifically, "they," or using the existing pronouns non-intuitively. I doubt there is polling on whether or not people would be comfortable using several different new pronouns. I did find this however, which seems to indicate that even among LGBTQ+ youth, the new pronouns are not very popular.

Interesting to have some numbers. Thanks.

 

[LondonJohn]

Ok, maybe you could add some clarification about Sam Smith?

American here, who is not familiar with Smith. They have a guy's name, a guy's appearance and traditional guy's dress, and identifies as gay, which is by definition a guy who is attracted to other guys. By any standard, they is a guy. There is nothing 'non-identified' about them, objectively.

To some of us, that makes the whole 'but not really' thing, complete with jazz hands, a little capricious. If they does literally everything in appearance, behavior, and self-identified orientation as a man, than what is this whole 'no really dude, I'm totally neither' thing about?

Not trying to be difficult, btw. This is one of those things I genuinely don't get.

It appears that you're unfamiliar with the concept of gender dysphoria. It's got nothing whatsoever per se to do with one's biological sex, one's name, one's clothing preferences or one's sexual orientation (although it can often partially manifest itself through any/all but the first of those categories).

Gender dysphoria (and transgender identity & gender fluidity) is an internalised condition. It's entirely feasible, for example, for a heterosexual biological male named John to identify as a woman. Equally, it's entirely feasible - and in fact it's the case - for somebody such as Grayson Perry (the renowned British male ceramics/tapestry artist) to present in exaggerated versions of women's clothing and consider himself to be a heterosexual man.

All of this is actually one of the key reasons why people should treat (sincere) requests to be considered as either gender or none with the respect and observance that they deserve: a person's gender identity can at times be otherwise difficult to discern with reference to purely visual/observational cues. In 2021, it's no longer acceptable to conclude that - simply because someone like Sam Smith dresses in "men's" clothing and has retained his "men's" name - this must somehow necessarily imply that they identify as a man.

 

[arthwollipot]

"Sam" actually is one of the most gender ambiguous common names we have.

 

[LondonJohn]

Neither of those 2 things apply to me. I'm non-binary when it comes to my feelings about non-binary people. It's not ideological and it's not some "compelled speech" thing.

I'm genuinely fascinated by the topic. People and the way the think and feel are very interesting subjects. I can't quite wrap my head around exactly what's happening with people that feel they are non-binary. I want to understand but I just can't grok the concept. I also like to argue because I think arguing openly is the best way to get to understanding.

I have my own internal working theories -a narcisssistic culture, mostly, along with a big societal change in the way we view "masculine" and "feminine." It's a conflict between the younger Facebook/TikTok generations and the older more traditional generations. I see the phenomenon as not very different from previous cultural shifts like the Hipsters, the Hippies or the Beatniks. Youth culture usurping the culture of their elders.

I wasn't in any way suggesting or implying that you fell into one of those two categories, nor that anyone in general who pushes back against pronoun preferences must tall into one of those two categories.

But, that aside, it appears clear that you do not understand the concept of gender dysphoria & transgender identity, and that because you don't understand it you find it difficult (to the point of being near-impossible) to recognise it and accept it.

I really would recommend reading things like recent articles/interviews* with people such as Eddie Izzard, Elliot Page or Cat Burton (a senior British Airways captain who identifies now as a woman). These people - and many, many others aside - are thoughtful, intelligent, mature eminent figures who faced genuine risks in revealing their transgender identities. Furthermore, I don't think that the likes of Izzard and Burton can in any sense be categorised in the way you've suggested above (as part of your attempted categorisation, you seem to be implying that it's primarily a cultural "fad" or "bandwagon" which many younger people somehow feel influenced to go along with).

All I can suggest, as I say, is to read up. It may become clearer to you that this is a genuine condition. And as such, it may also therefore become clearer that people's pronoun (and gender) preferences are to be respected and observed...


* https://www.theguardian.com/film/20...had-boob-envy-since-my-teens?CMP=share_btn_tw

https://time.com/5947032/elliot-page/

https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/cat-burton-transgender-pilot-trnd/index.html

 

[mgidm86]

That's right - most of the time you can assume that someone identifies as the gender they present as, and use pronouns accordingly. But there are a few who present ambiguously, and in such cases it is way better to ask, if they don't tell you upfront. As you can see <-- I'm in favour of telling people upfront, even though my presentation is not even remotely ambiguous. I would like to see more people - cis, trans or enby - do that.
Yep, that happens. As long as you recognise your mistake and endeavour to remember in the future, no-one will be offended. Everyone recognises that people mess up sometimes. The only way you'll have a problem with it is when you continue to mess up, or refuse to correct yourself.

And you know what? It gets even better. Several of my nonbinary acquaintances have talked about accidentally misgendering themselves! But one does get used to it over time.

Are you saying that you introduce yourself in this manner: "Hi, I'm Arthwollipot, and I like to be addressed as he/him?"

I have some new experience with this. A girl at work told everyone that she should be addressed as Max from now on instead of her given feminine name. She could pull off being Max pretty easily as she was sometimes mistaken for a man due to her way of dress, her physique, etc.

I walked up to Max and said, "So I hear you're Max now?"
"Yep"
"Nice to meet you, Max!"
"Nice to meet you too" (smiling)

Max also wants to be addressed as "he". We all supported this person, far as I know. Maybe some didn't. I had no problem addressing her/him as Max, however the "her/him" thing was a lot more difficult, especially when talking about this person.

"Is Max working or is she, I mean he, off today?" We all did it, of course, and Max knew it would happen. Max is very cool and has a good sense of humor.

A name is one thing, but to switch sexes/genders was harder. I have mixed thoughts on this. As long as the person is not offended when mistakes are made then that's fine. But I sometimes wonder if I am being asked to play along in some fantasy or mental disorder, which makes me wonder how far one should go when doing so.

I understand this is not a fantasy to Max. This is all new to me (and Max too I'd wager). I keep any doubt, if any, to myself because in the end, who gives a crap? I go to work and I go home. I like Max.

Max was fired a month later. They were going through a divorce and he just wasn't performing his job duties. It'd been going on awhile I guess. I was told that upon hearing he was fired that Max banged his head against a wall until it bled. At work. So Max has some pretty deep issues. Don't we all.

I care enough about people to not want to hurt them, and I've addressed Max as a male in this post, I think. I could get used to all this.

In the end it isn't important enough for me to find out Max's reasoning. I'm okay with it because I don't care much what other people do with their own lives. But when it intersects with mine I at least have a right to analyze it and find out what I think about it.

I told my parents "It's easy to criticize and condemn from your couch, but when you know somebody who is (whatever it is you fear) you suddenly realize that these are real people with feelings, and the heart softens accordingly" At least it should.

And it feels better to accept than to hate and be afraid. It's so much easier to live this way.

Don't blame me for being confused and I won't blame anyone else for it, how's that? I make an effort, you make an effort

 

[Steve]

Are you saying that you introduce yourself in this manner: "Hi, I'm Arthwollipot, and I like to be addressed as he/him?"

I have some new experience with this. A girl at work told everyone that she should be addressed as Max from now on instead of her given feminine name. She could pull off being Max pretty easily as she was sometimes mistaken for a man due to her way of dress, her physique, etc.

I walked up to Max and said, "So I hear you're Max now?"
"Yep"
"Nice to meet you, Max!"
"Nice to meet you too" (smiling)

Max also wants to be addressed as "he". We all supported this person, far as I know. Maybe some didn't. I had no problem addressing her/him as Max, however the "her/him" thing was a lot more difficult, especially when talking about this person.

"Is Max working or is she, I mean he, off today?" We all did it, of course, and Max knew it would happen. Max is very cool and has a good sense of humor.

A name is one thing, but to switch sexes/genders was harder. I have mixed thoughts on this. As long as the person is not offended when mistakes are made then that's fine. But I sometimes wonder if I am being asked to play along in some fantasy or mental disorder, which makes me wonder how far one should go when doing so.

I understand this is not a fantasy to Max. This is all new to me (and Max too I'd wager). I keep any doubt, if any, to myself because in the end, who gives a crap? I go to work and I go home. I like Max.

Max was fired a month later. They were going through a divorce and he just wasn't performing his job duties. It'd been going on awhile I guess. I was told that upon hearing he was fired that Max banged his head against a wall until it bled. At work. So Max has some pretty deep issues. Don't we all.

I care enough about people to not want to hurt them, and I've addressed Max as a male in this post, I think. I could get used to all this.

In the end it isn't important enough for me to find out Max's reasoning. I'm okay with it because I don't care much what other people do with their own lives. But when it intersects with mine I at least have a right to analyze it and find out what I think about it.

I told my parents "It's easy to criticize and condemn from your couch, but when you know somebody who is (whatever it is you fear) you suddenly realize that these are real people with feelings, and the heart softens accordingly" At least it should.

And it feels better to accept than to hate and be afraid. It's so much easier to live this way.

Don't blame me for being confused and I won't blame anyone else for it, how's that? I make an effort, you make an effort

Had a female friend in high school. Unlikely to be mistaken for male. Surname was Mackie. Friends all called her Max. No biggie to anyone.

 

[LondonJohn]

Good bedside manners doesn't generally require asking and giving preferred pronouns. And your attempt to justify what you previously denied was happening at all is pathetic.

Of course it does. Just as it's good manners (and not only good manners but, in the UK at least, rigorously-observed practice) for clinical staff in a hospital to ascertain - from the patient themselves - how they prefer to be addressed*.

And I guarantee that if a patient had, for example, the name Mr Henry Brown, and if this patient presented visually as a man, yet this patient was actually a transwoman who wished to be addressed as such (she/her/etc)..... it would be viewed as a mistake verging on malpractice for clinical staff to look at the name and the visual presentation and simply assume that the patient identified as a man (and all the more so, of course, if the patient had actually indicated their gender preference to staff at some prior point).


* For example, an 80-year-old female patient with the name Mrs Helen Smith may prefer to be addressed as "Mrs Smith", or as "Helen" - and they may feel uncomfortable if the appellation other than their preference is used. Likewise, a 30-year-old male patient named Mr Robert Jones might prefer to be addressed as "Mr Jones", "Robert", "Rob" or "Bob". In addition, there are plenty of instances where a person's legal first given name is not actually the name they choose to be known by (eg William James Black may actually go by the given name "James"). For all these reasons, clinical staff are trained to ask the patient themselves how they prefer to be addressed, and to then do their best to ensure that this preferred appellation is used every time.