Non-binary identities are valid

[xjx388]

Why are you using gender neutral pronouns? Isn't that completely unwieldy? How do you even remember all that?

Maybe you missed it? I’m willing to use “they.” It’s one pronoun as opposed to the infinite pronouns that could be introduced.

I ain’t tryin’ ta hear that noise...

 

[arthwollipot]

That said, it seems to me like if non-binaries are that offended by the existing categories, the most obvious solution would be to just get their own category.

They do. It's called nonbinary. Also known as enby for short.

Anyone who tells us to use to use ridiculous, almost idiosyncratically made-up pronouns such as “xe” or “hir” has a problem with the traditional use of the language.

As I never tire of pointing out, the number of people who insist on bespoke pronouns is vanishingly small. In the vast majority of situations you won't cause any offence by using they/them.

 

[Upchurch]

Maybe you missed it? I’m willing to use “they.” It’s one pronoun as opposed to the infinite pronouns that could be introduced.

As I never tire of pointing out, the number of people who insist on bespoke pronouns is vanishingly small. In the vast majority of situations you won't cause any offence by using they/them.

That, but do you also realize how many names there are out there? And everyone has their own individual name, the damn narcissists. How could you possibly associate specific words that go with specific people?

————————

Seriously though, it isn’t that you can’t use non-binary pronouns. And it isn’t that you don’t care about other people enough to try to use non-binary pronouns. And, unless you call everyone you know “John”, “Jane”, or perhaps just a nice gender-neutral “Jo”, you are capable of remembering individualized ways of addressing people you know. And, given that know exactly one non-binary person and they haven’t made you use anything other than they/their, it isn’t that you actually have been imposed upon or put out in any way.

I’m calling BS. You are 99% onboard with the whole thing already. You have experienced interactions with more non-binary people than most people ever have and you still haven’t experienced the thing you’re actually complaining about. No one is asking you to memorize infinite pronouns just like no one is asking you to memorize infinite names before you have to use them.

You appear to be reserving the right to be a dick to people, but from what you’ve said, I don’t think you are or would be if you were confronted with some “xi” in the future.

 

[Ziggurat]

Well, it sounds like you’ve made the decision that the convenience of using your system of pronouns is more important to you than being rude, a bigot, or whatever else. Congratulations. Most people don’t have that level of honesty or self-awareness.

“System of pronouns”.

What a ******* joke.

 

[d4m10n]

As I never tire of pointing out, the number of people who insist on bespoke pronouns is vanishingly small. In the vast majority of situations you won't cause any offence by using they/them.

Okay, so we can go with she/her or he/him or they/them the vast majority of the time. Glad we got that settled, but it still leaves open the question of how enbies sort themselves into categories for competition in music/sport/chess etc. not to mention changing rooms and the like.

 

[Upchurch]

Okay, so we can go with she/her or he/him or they/them the vast majority of the time. Glad we got that settled, but it still leaves open the question of how enbies sort themselves into categories for competition in music/sport/chess etc. not to mention changing rooms and the like.

Wrong thread

 

[Upchurch]

“System of pronouns”.

What a ******* joke.

 

[d4m10n]

Wrong thread

I literally started this thread to discuss what makes NB "valid" but feel free to school me on what counts as topical.

 

[Upchurch]

I literally started this thread to discuss what makes NB "valid" but feel free to school me on what counts as topical.

Ok. Duplicate thread

ETA: I was referring to the "who gets to play what sports" topic, btw. Which has it's own thread although, admittedly, it's a bit of a lost cause at this point.

 

[xjx388]

That, but do you also realize how many names there are out there? And everyone has their own individual name, the damn narcissists. How could you possibly associate specific words that go with specific people?

————————

Seriously though, it isn’t that you can’t use non-binary pronouns. And it isn’t that you don’t care about other people enough to try to use non-binary pronouns. And, unless you call everyone you know “John”, “Jane”, or perhaps just a nice gender-neutral “Jo”, you are capable of remembering individualized ways of addressing people you know. And, given that know exactly one non-binary person and they haven’t made you use anything other than they/their, it isn’t that you actually have been imposed upon or put out in any way.

I’m calling BS. You are 99% onboard with the whole thing already. You have experienced interactions with more non-binary people than most people ever have and you still haven’t experienced the thing you’re actually complaining about. No one is asking you to memorize infinite pronouns just like no one is asking you to memorize infinite names before you have to use them.

You appear to be reserving the right to be a dick to people, but from what you’ve said, I don’t think you are or would be if you were confronted with some “xi” in the future.

I AM 99% on board with the whole thing already. I'm reacting to the broader concept being put forward by some in the ally/activitist community, as epitomized by that web page I linked to. This concept that there are indeed an infinite number of pronouns I might have to know. And beyond the pronouns, the concept that there are an infinite number of genders that I must be sensitive to. I simply don't accept that. What there is is potentially an infinite number of people. Everyone experiences their gender/sexuality in a different way no matter what they label themselves. Just take me for an example: Sometimes I'm a raging heterosexual male; sometimes I'm pretty much asexual; sometimes I'm a little feminine in my emotions -does that make me genderfluid? I consider this whole "gender" thing to be nothing but fluff. There's no such thing as a "genderfluid" person. There's just a person, like me, feeling their feelings.

I will always do my best to treat people with respect and be as accomodating as I can; but, that doesn't mean I have to believe in their religion -be that God-based or gender-based.

 

[d4m10n]

I was referring to the "who gets to play what sports" topic, btw. Which has it's own thread although, admittedly, it's a bit of a lost cause at this point.

Okay, but (IMO) this topic is even harder since the only proposed solution is to abolish gendered and/or sexed categories (e.g. female vocalist, best actress) so as to create inclusion for those who do not identify as either men or women. This solution sounds very progressive on its face, but will likely result in even less representation for the underrepresented half of humanity, as pointed out at #623.

 

[Upchurch]

I AM 99% on board with the whole thing already. I'm reacting to the broader concept being put forward by some in the ally/activitist community, as epitomized by that web page I linked to. This concept that there are indeed an infinite number of pronouns I might have to know.

Okay, first, I don't think you actually linked to anything. You referenced a web site, but I didn't follow up on it. Second, what you quoted of the site didn't say you had to know any of those pronouns. It only recommended that you ask what someone's preference is. Much like you might ask a new person in a formal setting if you may call them by their first name.

And beyond the pronouns, the concept that there are an infinite number of genders that I must be sensitive to. I simply don't accept that.

We'll get to the "infinite" in a moment, but what do you think "being sensitive to" a particular gender means? What are you objecting to in that respect?

What there is is potentially an infinite number of people. Everyone experiences their gender/sexuality in a different way no matter what they label themselves. Just take me for an example: Sometimes I'm a raging heterosexual male; sometimes I'm pretty much asexual; sometimes I'm a little feminine in my emotions -does that make me genderfluid? I consider this whole "gender" thing to be nothing but fluff. There's no such thing as a "genderfluid" person. There's just a person, like me, feeling their feelings.

Okay, let's go with your definition that "gender" is someone feeling their feelings and, if I can extrapolate a bit, how they label themselves is just representative, to them at least, of those feelings. We could make those feeling/gender labels "alpha", "beta", "gamma". It doesn't matter. They're just labels for a set of feelings, right?

But, since we live in a society where people interact and communicate with one another, we have to convey to one another what feelings are associated with those labels. If not, what is the point of having language anyway?

So, let's say that Amy labels themselves as an alpha and Ben labels themselves as a beta, both based on their individual feelings. For most of your life, let's say, you've only met people who've labeled themselves as either alpha or beta. You've never met a gamma, delta, epsilon, or even a zeta. Heck, you've never even heard of those labels before.

One day, however, Gary comes along and labels themselves as a gamma. Gamma, remember, is just a label for the feelings that Gary feels. Now, here are the questions:

• Is Gary's gamma label valid or less valid than Amy and Ben's, just because it is different from all the other people you've known?
• Is Gary, by virtue of being labeled a gamma, making you learn and memorize what the delta, epsilon, or zeta labels mean?
• Is Gary making you do anything different than you haven't already done for Amy, Ben, and all the other alphas and betas out there?
• Bonus: There are currently less than 8 billion people alive in the world and approximately only 108 billion people ever. The very vast majority of those people have only ever used the alpha or beta labels. Things you've read on the internet not withstanding, how many labels of feelings could there actually be?

 

[Myriad]

So, let's say that Amy labels themselves as an alpha and Ben labels themselves as a beta, both based on their individual feelings. For most of your life, let's say, you've only met people who've labeled themselves as either alpha or beta. You've never met a gamma, delta, epsilon, or even a zeta. Heck, you've never even heard of those labels before.

One day, however, Gary comes along and labels themselves as a gamma. Gamma, remember, is just a label for the feelings that Gary feels.

It's all Greek to me.

 

[Thermal]

Okay, first, I don't think you actually linked to anything. You referenced a web site, but I didn't follow up on it. Second, what you quoted of the site didn't say you had to know any of those pronouns. It only recommended that you ask what someone's preference is. Much like you might ask a new person in a formal setting if you may call them by their first name.


We'll get to the "infinite" in a moment, but what do you think "being sensitive to" a particular gender means? What are you objecting to in that respect?



Okay, let's go with your definition that "gender" is someone feeling their feelings and, if I can extrapolate a bit, how they label themselves is just representative, to them at least, of those feelings. We could make those feeling/gender labels "alpha", "beta", "gamma". It doesn't matter. They're just labels for a set of feelings, right?

But, since we live in a society where people interact and communicate with one another, we have to convey to one another what feelings are associated with those labels. If not, what is the point of having language anyway?

So, let's say that Amy labels themselves as an alpha and Ben labels themselves as a beta, both based on their individual feelings. For most of your life, let's say, you've only met people who've labeled themselves as either alpha or beta. You've never met a gamma, delta, epsilon, or even a zeta. Heck, you've never even heard of those labels before.

One day, however, Gary comes along and labels themselves as a gamma. Gamma, remember, is just a label for the feelings that Gary feels. Now, here are the questions:

• Is Gary's gamma label valid or less valid than Amy and Ben's, just because it is different from all the other people you've known?
• Is Gary, by virtue of being labeled a gamma, making you learn and memorize what the delta, epsilon, or zeta labels mean?
• Is Gary making you do anything different than you haven't already done for Amy, Ben, and all the other alphas and betas out there?
• Bonus: There are currently less than 8 billion people alive in the world and approximately only 108 billion people ever. The very vast majority of those people have only ever used the alpha or beta labels. Things you've read on the internet not withstanding, how many labels of feelings could there actually be?

While the overwhelming majority used the binary, I think the discussion is about these few who insist on the differing labels. For practical purposes, you're right- just deal with what's in front of you. But surely it's interesting to explore the fringes to see how the reasoning holds up?

Say Gary claims to be politically independent. You observe that he has only voted Republican his entire life, is a volunteer as a registered Republican, has a Regan tattoo as a tramp stamp, is saving up for a Trump sleeve, has a MAGA hat surgically attached to his head, and cannot achieve orgasm without invoking tax cuts for the wealthy and putting Latinos in cages. This kind of thing is seen on the forum, btw, with fair frequency. Is it fair to say to Gary "yo man, you appear to be entirely a committed Republican, not some non-partisan freethinker", or do we respect his claimed feelings on the matter?

 

[xjx388]

Okay, first, I don't think you actually linked to anything. You referenced a web site, but I didn't follow up on it. Second, what you quoted of the site didn't say you had to know any of those pronouns. It only recommended that you ask what someone's preference is. Much like you might ask a new person in a formal setting if you may call them by their first name.

That's what I mean . . . I have to think about asking everyone their preferred pronouns? That's absurd! I've never ever in my life asked that question in any situation. My assumptions have been 99.99%+ right.

We'll get to the "infinite" in a moment, but what do you think "being sensitive to" a particular gender means? What are you objecting to in that respect?

That's just bad phrasing on my part. What I'm objecting to, bottom line, is being asked to change my behavior -ask this question, learn these new words, change your view of reality- to accommodate what I see as expressions of narcissism. There's nothing special about a person who declares that their gender is Gamma (to use your scenario) when the word "gender" in that context is meaningless. We are all born male or female. We all have behaviors that can be fit into the "man" label or the "woman" label. We are all attracted to who we are attracted to. In my view there are only two sexes: Male and Female. That's what the pronouns should tie to, not a particular individual's inner feelings. That's easy and it makes sense as far as general communication goes.

Okay, let's go with your definition that "gender" is someone feeling their feelings

I wouldn't say that's my definition of "gender." That's simply a description of what's actually happening and what some people are trying to tie to the word "gender." I think "gender" is a synonym for "sex," simple as that.

and, if I can extrapolate a bit, how they label themselves is just representative, to them at least, of those feelings.

But do we actually need a word to describe our inner feelings? "Man," as a label for me, doesn't say squat about my inner feelings. "Heterosexual," only indicates that I like to have sex with women.

We could make those feeling/gender labels "alpha", "beta", "gamma". It doesn't matter. They're just labels for a set of feelings, right?

For the purposes of your thought experiment, sure, why not?

But, since we live in a society where people interact and communicate with one another, we have to convey to one another what feelings are associated with those labels. If not, what is the point of having language anyway?

But we have not done this for most of human history. Man and Woman don't describe inner feelings. You could argue that they carry the baggage of societal expectations, maybe.

So, let's say that Amy labels themselves as an alpha and Ben labels themselves as a beta, both based on their individual feelings.

OK, but in the real world, I didn't label myself a man. I was born male; therefore I'm a man. I didn't ask for the label and I don't fit the societal expectations of what a "Man" is (or used to be, anyway). That's just the way the language works.

For most of your life, let's say, you've only met people who've labeled themselves as either alpha or beta.

I don't meet people, except for one, who label themselves anything. They just are those things, by dint of birth.

You've never met a gamma, delta, epsilon, or even a zeta. Heck, you've never even heard of those labels before.

One day, however, Gary comes along and labels themselves as a gamma. Gamma, remember, is just a label for the feelings that Gary feels. Now, here are the questions:

Is Gary's gamma label valid or less valid than Amy and Ben's, just because it is different from all the other people you've known?

It's just as valid in that it's a description of Gary's feelings.

Is Gary, by virtue of being labeled a gamma, making you learn and memorize what the delta, epsilon, or zeta labels mean?

No.

Is Gary making you do anything different than you haven't already done for Amy, Ben, and all the other alphas and betas out there?

Well, you didn't stipulate it, but if Gary is asking me to learn new pronouns to refer to his self-labelled Gamma-ness, then Gary is indeed asking me to do somehting different. I didn't have to learn new pronouns for the Alphas and Betas.

Bonus: There are currently less than 8 billion people alive in the world and approximately only 108 billion people ever. The very vast majority of those people have only ever used the alpha or beta labels. Things you've read on the internet not withstanding, how many labels of feelings could there actually be?

Potentially? 108 billion. If "gender" is indeed a label for inner feelings, then everyone is pretty unique. But if "gender" refers only to sex at birth (or "reassigned" later) then there are only two labels.

 

[Upchurch]

That's what I mean . . . I have to think about asking everyone their preferred pronouns? That's absurd! I've never ever in my life asked that question in any situation. My assumptions have been 99.99%+ right.

As a critical thinker, what do you do when your assumptions are wrong, even if it is less than 0.01% of the time? Do you fit the data to your understanding or do you change your understanding to fit the data?

That's just bad phrasing on my part. What I'm objecting to, bottom line, is being asked to change my behavior -ask this question, learn these new words, change your view of reality- to accommodate what I see as expressions of narcissism.

I never quite understood why you think it's motivated by narcissism. From what you've said, you know only one non-binary karaoke-singing person who uses they/them. What's your basis for that opinion?

There's nothing special about a person who declares that their gender is Gamma (to use your scenario) when the word "gender" in that context is meaningless. We are all born male or female. We all have behaviors that can be fit into the "man" label or the "woman" label. We are all attracted to who we are attracted to. In my view there are only two sexes: Male and Female.

I mean, there are exceptions to that, but generally speaking, yes, there are only two sexes. However, we're talking about gender and the terms are not synonymous. Sex is an aspect of biology. Gender is a construct of society. We know this because there are cultures that do not determine gender based explicitly on sex and there are cultures that have more than just two genders.

And, thankfully, societies change over time. Could you imagine if American society hadn't changed over the last 250ish years?

I wouldn't say that's my definition of "gender."

If that premise is wrong, the thought experiment is moot.

 

[d4m10n]

Gender is a construct of society.

Does this imply that all members of any given society should have some input as to which genders they choose to recognize? Suppose someone says, "I don't recognize non-binary as a third gender." It that just part of the social construction process, or is it wrong in some sense?

 

[xjx388]

As a critical thinker, what do you do when your assumptions are wrong, even if it is less than 0.01% of the time? Do you fit the data to your understanding or do you change your understanding to fit the data?

It's very hard to apply critical thinking to a subject as subjective and emotion-laden as "gender." When someone tells me they aren't what I assumed, I just say something like, "Oops. I'm so sorry." I then try and make an effort to address them correctly.

I don't change my understanding in the sense that "oh, there are people who aren't male or female." I change my behavior to make the person feel better.

I never quite understood why you think it's motivated by narcissism. From what you've said, you know only one non-binary karaoke-singing person who uses they/them. What's your basis for that opinion?

Because it's very "look at me, I'm so special I insist on these special words to refer to me." Most people don't go around announcing their gender or even think about it much. People who insist on labels and pronouns seem to spend a lot of time thinking about themselves and how others see them. It's important to them.

It's just my impression. My non-binary friend was born male and looks male but they are gay and doesn't think that "man" applies to him but neither does "woman". They'd rather not choose a gender label because it's not important to him. Maybe there are a lot of people like them? All I know is the vocal ones, so I'm perhaps being a little harsh.

ETA: See, I screwed up there and call them "him." I still do think of them as a "male" even if they don't. It's a tough one.

I mean, there are exceptions to that, but generally speaking, yes, there are only two sexes. However, we're talking about gender and the terms are not synonymous. Sex is an aspect of biology. Gender is a construct of society. We know this because there are cultures that do not determine gender based explicitly on sex and there are cultures that have more than just two genders.

I understand what the word is supposed to mean in that context. I think it's a perfectly valid word for studying societal roles as it relates to biological sex. I also think that such a concept, the idea that there are social roles that go with being a certain sex, is outdated and no longer embraced as widely in society as it used to be. This is what we should be moving towards.

And, thankfully, societies change over time. Could you imagine if American society hadn't changed over the last 250ish years?

I can't imagine that. I'm glad that we are becoming more accepting of what a "man" can be. When we were first married, I got a lot of grief from family and friends because my wife and I decided that she would be the breadwinner and I would be the stay-at-home. It was weird to everyone and I wasn't doing my duty as a man, supposedly. I had a tough time with it because I actually felt that way, too. It took awhile for everyone to accept that there's nothing wrong with a dude who takes care of the kids and a woman who works and brings in the money.

 

[Upchurch]

Does this imply that all members of any given society should have some input as to which genders they choose to recognize? Suppose someone says, "I don't recognize non-binary as a third gender." It that just part of the social construction process, or is it wrong in some sense?

I'm no sociologist. How did we decide that slavery was bad or it's impolite to fart loudly during a funeral?

 

[arthwollipot]

That's what I mean . . . I have to think about asking everyone their preferred pronouns? That's absurd! I've never ever in my life asked that question in any situation. My assumptions have been 99.99%+ right.

That's right - most of the time you can assume that someone identifies as the gender they present as, and use pronouns accordingly. But there are a few who present ambiguously, and in such cases it is way better to ask, if they don't tell you upfront. As you can see <-- I'm in favour of telling people upfront, even though my presentation is not even remotely ambiguous. I would like to see more people - cis, trans or enby - do that.

ETA: See, I screwed up there and call them "him." I still do think of them as a "male" even if they don't. It's a tough one.

Yep, that happens. As long as you recognise your mistake and endeavour to remember in the future, no-one will be offended. Everyone recognises that people mess up sometimes. The only way you'll have a problem with it is when you continue to mess up, or refuse to correct yourself.

And you know what? It gets even better. Several of my nonbinary acquaintances have talked about accidentally misgendering themselves! But one does get used to it over time.