Non-binary identities are valid

[HansMustermann]

Not sure about that. Gays ultimately just wanted to be gay. You weren't really supposed to do anything that you weren't doing before, just because a gay couple moved down the street. Whether they actually did anything at all in their bedroom -- gay, or straight, or whatever -- didn't really affect anything you do.

The whole trans and non-binary thing lately, though, has moved into a much more... trolly phase. And it seems to have latched onto by a lot of people whose demands are just another form of asking to push actual women out of sports competitions and whatnot. Which is a whole other issue than someone's right to be gay or wear a dress or identify as whatever they wish.

 

[Upchurch]

Not sure about that. Gays ultimately just wanted to be gay. You weren't really supposed to do anything that you weren't doing before, just because a gay couple moved down the street.

I disagree. There were plenty of complaints how merely seeing a gay couple walking down the street was an imposition. Having to treat them as an actual couple? Gay marriage, lets not forget, was going to ruin the very institution of marriage itself and what a burden that would be on traditionally married couples.

Of course, it did nothing of the kind.

In this thread, we're arguing about the kinds of pronouns to use. I mean, people were already going to refer to people by pronouns and they were already going to have to remember what pronoun to use for each person. The difference here is now there might not be able to reliably assume what those pronouns will be ahead of time if they wish to be polite.

 

[xjx388]

I really do think that this whole "gender" thing is an outgrowth of an extremely narcisisstic generation. Everyone wants to have something special about them. Pronouns are seemingly unique: "You must refer to me as xe/xir/xey." There has to be esoteric and inscrutable labels applied to them: genderqueer, novigender, genderfluid, androgyne, etc. It's all about showing the world how different and unique they are and forcing everyone else to acknowledge their specialness.

Not to say that there aren't genuine psychological or whatever medical issues. But the explosion in gender terms, demands that everyone else accept contrafactual perceptions and insistence on "proper" pronouns just feels like: "Look at me! I'm different!" BS. We are all different and have our own unique and inscrutable perceptions, experiences in society and the resultant identity that emerges.

ETA: Everyone of us has a non-binary identity in that we are all a mix of traits that could be put on the male-female spectrum. Why is it that the vast majority of us, especially the older ones among us, have no problem with the traditional use of the English language?

I just wish we could stop with the neologisms. You want he, she, it or they? I'll do my best. I will also do my best to make you feel accepted -I accept you as you are. That's the most you can expect.

 

[Upchurch]

I really do think that this whole "gender" thing is an outgrowth of an extremely narcisisstic generation. Everyone wants to have something special about them. Pronouns are seemingly unique: "You must refer to me as xe/xir/xey." There has to be esoteric and inscrutable labels applied to them: genderqueer, novigender, genderfluid, androgyne, etc. It's all about showing the world how different and unique they are and forcing everyone else to acknowledge their specialness.

Not to say that there aren't genuine psychological or whatever medical issues. But the explosion in gender terms, demands that everyone else accept contrafactual perceptions and insistence on "proper" pronouns just feels like: "Look at me! I'm different!" BS. We are all different and have our own unique and inscrutable perceptions, experiences in society and the resultant identity that emerges.

ETA: Everyone of us has a non-binary identity in that we are all a mix of traits that could be put on the male-female spectrum. Why is it that the vast majority of us, especially the older ones among us, have no problem with the traditional use of the English language?

I just wish we could stop with the neologisms. You want he, she, it or they? I'll do my best. I will also do my best to make you feel accepted -I accept you as you are. That's the most you can expect.

Which ones are the extremely narcisisstic generation and which ones have no problem with the traditional use of the English language? (hint: Every generation has changed the meaning of English words. You dig? I mean, some of it was aces, boss, and bad, but others, with others were, like, as if!)

 

[xjx388]

Which ones are the extremely narcisisstic generation and which ones have no problem with the traditional use of the English language? (hint: Every generation has changed the meaning of English words. You dig? I mean, some of it was aces, boss, and bad, but others, with others were, like, as if!)

Everyone under the age of 30 is a narcissist.

Anyone who tells us to use to use ridiculous, almost idiosyncratically made-up pronouns such as “xe” or “hir” has a problem with the traditional use of the language.

That’s a bit different from the use of slang throughout the ages.

 

[Ron Obvious]

Anybody who would demand of the rest of the world to validate how they see themselves is a narcissist. Especially if their self-image does not comport with the real world.

Civility only gets you so far with a narcissist.

 

[Upchurch]

Everyone under the age of 30 is a narcissist.

Anyone who tells us to use to use ridiculous, almost idiosyncratically made-up pronouns such as “xe” or “hir” has a problem with the traditional use of the language.

That’s a bit different from the use of slang throughout the ages.

Cool.

Do you literally* not know that the traditional use of words change all the time? You're barking up the wrong tree with this argument.


* for example

 

[xjx388]

Cool.

Do you literally* not know that the traditional use of words change all the time? You're barking up the wrong tree with this argument.


* for example

Dank argument. So dope.

Not.

“Dank” and “dope” are words. They have become slang that kids use, along with some corrupted words like “cuh” (that’s a 956 thing) as they have throughout history, to have their own “in-speak.” Slang is traditional use of the language.

“Xe” and “hir” are not words. English has very defined pronouns and they are so ingrained into our language. Asking us to substitute those established pronouns is not traditional usage.

I have no problem upending traditional use of language when it’s warranted. My opinion is that “I’m such a special person I need my own pronouns and you better use them or else you are erasing me,”* is not a good reason to upend perfectly good pronouns. I will use he/she/they/it if someone asks me to. I will try anyway. That’s as far as I go. You will never see me say or write “hir” in reference to a person.



*I mean honestly, if my use of “they” instead of “ze” erases your identity, then maybe your identity never existed in the first place.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I blame it all on the failure of men to properly wear real hats anymore. Style must never change I mean how can someone be properly manly with out a hat?

 

[Ziggurat]

Which ones are the extremely narcisisstic generation and which ones have no problem with the traditional use of the English language? (hint: Every generation has changed the meaning of English words. You dig? I mean, some of it was aces, boss, and bad, but others, with others were, like, as if!)

You say that as if all changes are equivalent. But they aren't. The slang that you mention evolved organically, and their usage was always optional. There is nothing organic about the new suite of pronouns, and those behind them want to make them compulsory.

 

[d4m10n]

Do you literally* not know that the traditional use of words change all the time? You're barking up the wrong tree with this argument.

Anyone can come up with neologisms or new meanings for established terms. It's a bit trickier to get other people to voluntarily adopt your new usage, though, and that is an essential step.

 

[Matthew Best]

I'm not even sure what amount of comprehension problems or willing stupidity does one need to get from what we were talking, with statistical data provided, to the above. Considering that the numbers I gave you, yes, are exactly about what proportion make it into the competition.

In any case, and more importantly, you can't support a conclusion (e.g., "just do what the Grammies do and don't have gendered categories" from your message #589) by basing it on NOT knowing what the situation is (your "for all I know" quoted above.) That's a literal argument from ignorance fallacy, which is to say, stupid. If you don't know, then you don't know. You can't deduce what we should do about ANY given problem from just NOT knowing what the situation is.

Well that's the point. I don't know, and you don't know either, but you seem to have no problem drawing a conclusion from your ignorance!

Look, if 10,000 albums are produced in a year, and 1,000 of them are produced by women, should women automatically expect to receive 50% of the awards for record production?

I don't know what the actual figures are, but neither, as far as I can tell, do you.

Also, please try not to be so rude.

 

[Upchurch]

“Xe” and “hir” are not words.

The slang that you mention evolved organically, and their usage was always optional.

Fo shizzle my nizzle.

Are three of four of those words? Are they organic? And, yet, were you able to understand them and derive meaning from them?

Look, no one is holding a gun to your head making you say words you don't want to say. And if you're worried that if you don't say those words, people might think you are rude or bigots or whatever, then you have as just as much concern about being validated by others as you think the people with different pronouns do.

 

[xjx388]

Fo shizzle my nizzle.

Are three of four of those words? Are they organic? And, yet, were you able to understand them and derive meaning from them?

The use of those words evolved organically: Snoop Dogg uttered them and everyone thought it was cool and started using them. You dizzle? Slang is nothing more than regular language reappropriated as a way to signal one's coolness.

Look, no one is holding a gun to your head making you say words you don't want to say. And if you're worried that if you don't say those words, people might think you are rude or bigots or whatever, then you have as just as much concern about being validated by others as you think the people with different pronouns do.

I'm not worried about any such thing. No cap, bruh: I'm legit worried about being able to keep it all straight in the membrane. This genderqueer friend wants to be called ze. This two-spirit acquaintance insists on ae. This butch lesbian wants to be called she. I mean, c'mon man! Language should be simple and meaning should be clear. It's hard enough trying to figure out what some of these gender labels are trying to express. You can't even say that all genderqueer should have x pronoun and all bisexuals should have y pronouns. It's all individual identification, which leads me to think it has little to do with an internal "valid lived experience" and more to do with an expression of individualism.

For example, this website admonishes me thusly:

Please note that these are not the only pronouns. There are an infinite number of pronouns as new ones emerge in our language. Always ask someone for their pronouns.

Holy ****** I might have to remember an infinity of pronouns?! When can we admit that the whole thing is stupid? "They" is already a pronoun, I don't have to remember different things for different people and it flows off the brain easier.

I think the pronoun thing is a huge barrier to greater acceptance of LGBTQXYZ people. They should get their heads together and agree on something that will gain widespread acceptance without causing the division we see today. Just get Snoop Dogg to say it a few times . . .

 

[Upchurch]

I'm not worried about any such thing.* No cap, bruh: I'm legit worried about being able to keep it all straight in the membrane. This genderqueer friend wants to be called ze. This two-spirit acquaintance insists on ae. This butch lesbian wants to be called she.

Why do you care about keeping it all straight? What does it matter to you? If you think there is only one right way to use the English language, why wouldn't you just assign the correct pronoun based on that one right way and use that?

For example, this website admonishes me thusly:

But YOU. DON'T. CARE. what other people think of you, let alone some website. Call people what you think they are and to hell with it! Amirite?

...or do other people's opinions of you matter, in some small way?


*my emphasis

 

[Ziggurat]

Fo shizzle my nizzle.

Are three of four of those words? Are they organic? And, yet, were you able to understand them and derive meaning from them?

The problem was never understanding. The problem is control. This is obvious, but you choose not to understand.

Look, no one is holding a gun to your head making you say words you don't want to say.

No, not with guns, not yet. But people are in fact trying to make other people say words they don't want to say. And they do get people fired for it.

And if you're worried that if you don't say those words, people might think you are rude or bigots or whatever

Keep pretending you don't understand how this works. They will come for you too eventually. You aren't pure enough. No one is.

 

[Upchurch]

The problem was never understanding. The problem is control. This is obvious, but you choose not to understand.


No, not with guns, not yet. But people are in fact trying to make other people say words they don't want to say. And they do get people fired for it.


Keep pretending you don't understand how this works. They will come for you too eventually. You aren't pure enough. No one is.

I did not realize you were that far down the rabbit hole. I will slowly back away now and leave you to your tin foil.

 

[Ziggurat]

For example, this website admonishes me thusly:

Please note that these are not the only pronouns. There are an infinite number of pronouns as new ones emerge in our language. Always ask someone for their pronouns.

Titania McGrath is a prophet.

 

[xjx388]

Why do you care about keeping it all straight? What does it matter to you?

It doesn't. I'm merely illustrating the absurdity of what we are being asked to do.

If you think there is only one right way to use the English language, why wouldn't you just assign the correct pronoun based on that one right way and use that?

I will.

But YOU. DON'T. CARE. what other people think of you, let alone some website.

Again, I'm just illuminating the absurdity of the ask.

Call people what you think they are and to hell with it! Amirite?

...or do other people's opinions of you matter, in some small way?

I mean, I'm human -a social animal. What others think of me is somewhat important. I want to be viewed as the caring, empathetic and intelligent human being I see myself as. I really don't want to cause offense to anyone. I'm willing to compromise. But I'm not willing to submit to absurdity simply because someone calls me a bigot unless I do submit.

So yeah, I do care a little, but not enough to bend to unreasonable demands.

 

[HansMustermann]

I disagree. There were plenty of complaints how merely seeing a gay couple walking down the street was an imposition. Having to treat them as an actual couple? Gay marriage, lets not forget, was going to ruin the very institution of marriage itself and what a burden that would be on traditionally married couples.

Except it didn't really. Yes, some people did act as if it's some great oppression if they don't get to poke their nose into other people's business and tell them what they can or can't do, but ultimately they gays weren't really requiring them to do anything else than mind their own business. The fact that some gays down the street got married, didn't really change anything for your hetero marriage. You didn't have any more or less obligations or anything.

It's not even remotely an analogy for stuff like demanding that women now compete against biological males in sports competitions, like some of the new generation of entitled twits are demanding.

Basically if all you have as an analogy is basically "yeah, but some people objected to that one too", then that's not even an analogy. It fails for the same reason why "but they laughed at Galileo too" fails as an argument for woowoo. In the words of Carl Sagan, "they laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." Same here. Some things are objected to for good reason, some are objected to for bad reasons, and some are somewhere in between. But you have to establish that, not just handwave that something is valid because people also objected to something else.

In this thread, we're arguing about the kinds of pronouns to use.

That's... at best oversimplifying it, and at worst a motte-and-bailey fallacy. The range of demands has been quite a bit more diverse than that.

I mean, people were already going to refer to people by pronouns and they were already going to have to remember what pronoun to use for each person. The difference here is now there might not be able to reliably assume what those pronouns will be ahead of time if they wish to be polite.

Even there the difference is also that for most people you had a pretty good visual cue as to what pronoun fits. If you remembered even vaguely what that person looks like, that was already cue enough. Just having to remember an purely arbitrary word for each person is not even remotely the same.

And that's not even getting into aspects that actually have a money cost, like demanding that some website or corporate registration system now adds more options than "Mr", "Ms", "Mrs". That can easily mean thousands of dollars for some site that wasn't otherwise even developed any more, if you have to pay someone to come and learn how it works, make the changes, run it through testing again, etc.

So pretending that it's just the same as some gays wanting to be left alone, is cute, but basically nonsense.