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[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

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Say you're in charge of a gym in a place where trans people can have their gender identity officially recognized by the government and it's unlawful to discriminate on that basis.
If it is unlawful to discriminate between people based on gender, how can gymnasium management lawfully say that people expressing/identifying with masculine gender must make use of one room while people expressing/identifying with feminine gender should use another room? That is the meaning of gender discrimination, on its face. The only way around the problem would be to allow everyone into either room (perhaps after a redesign/renovation) or else for lawmakers to make it clear that businesses may promulgate policies which discriminate between patrons using gender-related criteria rather than using sex-related criteria. This brings us to what I'd consider the key question: What gender-based criteria would you have lawmakers adopt?

(I'm guessing self-i.d. but no doubt other possibilities abound.)
 
As expressed by others in this thread, we would all like private changing rooms- one gets spoiled WRT privacy as soon as they get a taste of it.

However, it seems like prescribing individual private spaces for all is a bit of a "let them eat cake" solution IOW not really a solution at all.

I don't understand this point. How is personal privacy "spoiling" anyone or a "let them eat cake" solution? Are you saying that it's simply not feasible to do so? If so, why isn't it?

I don't see how people preferring personal privacy is a detriment. If anything, it will make these changes more readily accepted as a general improvement for everyone.

In light of all the big scandals involving adults molesting children, there's been growing discussion that people should have more bodily autonomy, which includes increasing the availability privacy and other personal boundaries.

Perhaps it's a good time to question whether requiring communal undressing is a useful norm to preserve, or whether we'd all just be better off having much more control who and when people can see us naked.
 
I don't understand this point. How is personal privacy "spoiling" anyone or a "let them eat cake" solution? Are you saying that it's simply not feasible to do so? If so, why isn't it?

I don't see how people preferring personal privacy is a detriment. If anything, it will make these changes more readily accepted as a general improvement for everyone.

In light of all the big scandals involving adults molesting children, there's been growing discussion that people should have more bodily autonomy, which includes increasing the availability privacy and other personal boundaries.

Perhaps it's a good time to question whether requiring communal undressing is a useful norm to preserve, or whether we'd all just be better off having much more control who and when people can see us naked.
It is not a detriment.
I was pointing out that everyone would prefer if every facility had private individual changing areas. That would, obviously make the issue of who uses what room moot.

Thinking that all institutions could make that (private rooms for everyone) a reality is unrealistic.
Thus the comparison to offering that as a solution to "let them eat cake"
 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56338666

Fair Play for Women, which seeks to defend "the sex-based rights of women and girls", launched a crowdfunded legal action arguing that the census guidance on the question, "What is your sex?" was unlawful. The group called it "sex self-identification through the back door".

The guidance, published in the online census only, says: "If you are considering how to answer, use the sex recorded on one of your legal documents such as a birth certificate, gender recognition certificate, or passport.

"If you are aged 16 years or over, there is a later voluntary question on gender identity. This asks if the gender you identify with is different from your sex registered at birth.

"If it is different, you can then record your gender identity."

After a court hearing on Tuesday, Mr Justice Swift ruled that the guidance should be changed to say individuals should only respond with the answer on their birth certificate or gender recognition certificate - a document which allows trans people to change their legal gender.

He said he was satisfied the campaign group was "more likely than not to succeed" on its case regarding the legal meaning of sex as defined in the legislation.
 
I don't understand this point. How is personal privacy "spoiling" anyone or a "let them eat cake" solution? Are you saying that it's simply not feasible to do so? If so, why isn't it?

I don't see how people preferring personal privacy is a detriment. If anything, it will make these changes more readily accepted as a general improvement for everyone.

In light of all the big scandals involving adults molesting children, there's been growing discussion that people should have more bodily autonomy, which includes increasing the availability privacy and other personal boundaries.

Perhaps it's a good time to question whether requiring communal undressing is a useful norm to preserve, or whether we'd all just be better off having much more control who and when people can see us naked.

It's a forced solution to a problem that only exists because a very small segment of people want to replace biological sex with an internal sense of entirely subjective gender identity, and aren't willing to use common sense of accept a reasonable compromise.

90% of people are perfectly fine using communal changing rooms with members of the same biological sex. 9.5% don't like being naked around anyone, regardless of their sex or gender, and want more privacy. Most communal rooms have some limited access to more private spaces, and even if they don't most of the time that 9.5% of people can come up with solutions that work for them all on their own.

Then there's the 0.5% that subjectively declare themselves to be the gender opposite their actual biological sex. That 0.5% doesn't want to use separate changing rooms, or use the disabled changing rooms. That 0.5% gets irate when they are told to use the room that other people are most likely to assume they belong in, and to keep their genitalia covered. That 0.5% wants to use communal changing rooms with members of the opposite sex - regardless of whether those other people consent to being seen naked by them or not, and regardless of whether those other people consent to seeing their genitalia.

So at the end of the day, we're talking about a massive amount of construction work, and a non-insignificant financial investment, to solve a "problem" that isn't actually a solution at all. Everyone gets privacy whether they want it or not... and the 0.5% of people who are pushing us to this point don't actually want that privacy to begin with.
 
The optional question on gender identity refers to asking whether identity differs from sex registered at birth. The question on sex doesn't specify this, but the guidance says it can be answered with reference to 'legal sex', for example on a passport, which might be different from sex registered at birth. Therefore it is setting a precedent that a question on sex does not need to refer to actual biological or natal sex.


Census 2021: Judge orders change to sex question guidance

Granting an application for judicial review today, Justice Swift made an interim order that the question on sex should only be answered with the sex on a birth certificate or GRC. Full judicial review to take place next week. If ONS appeals it will likely be on procedural grounds (that it is too late to change the guidance).

During the hearing the judge stated "if there's a problem with withdrawing Guidance now it's one of the ONS's own making". The ONS (as usual) completely ignored advice from over 80 academics with relevant expertise and caved to the gender lobby.

Lord Hunt mentioned the cowardice of the ONS in his speech on 22/02.
 
I don't understand this point. How is personal privacy "spoiling" anyone or a "let them eat cake" solution? Are you saying that it's simply not feasible to do so? If so, why isn't it?

I've mentioned this before, but my yoga studio has two women's changing rooms, one men's changing room, and one unisex toilet/shower/changing room that's single use (lock on the door, one person at a time).

Because classes start at a set time, people show up around 10 minutes before class. If 50 people have to get changed in a ten minute time frame, I would need a lot of private stalls for them to do that. We don't actually have the space to install that many private stalls.

I could rent more space, or turn some classroom space into changing rooms. But this year we're having a hard enough time paying the rent as it is.

Luckily for people who do have issues, we have that single use unisex room.

It would be nice for everyone to have a private space to get changed, but it's not actually feasible for everyone to do that.
 
Tenacious Unicorn Ranch, an Alpaca ranch in rural Colorado run as a refuge for trans people, claims to be under threat from local armed bigots and militia types. They have claimed that armed men have been surveilling and trespassing on their property at night, and chatter on local militia boards are escalating towards direct violence against the group.

This is an evolving situation and there is, as of yet, not much good reporting on the issue. The group in investing in improving the security systems of the ranch.

The claim from the official ranch twitter:

The Tenacious Unicorn Ranch is under attack by local bigots and militia. They have threatened violence, publicly, to us and those that help or associate with us. They have encroach on our property, armed, at night,
with the intent to harm those of us that live here. We need help,

https://twitter.com/TenaciousRanch/status/1368996977959047168

here's an older article about the group in Vice:

https://www.vice.com/en/article/dyzyzx/the-alpaca-ranch-thats-creating-a-rural-utopia-for-trans-people

The costs of anti-trans bigotry are quite high.
 
Well, that's exceedingly vague. Any more details anywhere?

Not that I see yet.

Local news covered the ranch on March 1st, and claims of armed trespassers happened shortly after. Local report also describes how a false claim of animal abuse was made against the ranch:

In early February, a deputy showed up to the Tenacious Unicorn Ranch to investigate an anonymous tip that they were abusing their alpaca.

“We get harassed pretty regularly,” Logue said.

The complaint was unfounded and Byerly said he wouldn’t be surprised if someone called trying to make their lives more difficult because of a High Country News article that “left a poor taste in most of the county’s mouth.”

https://www.9news.com/article/news/community/voices-of-change/180-alpaca-tenacious-unicorn-ranch-conservative-colorado-transgender-community/73-df8a5c07-6291-4abf-8bef-551b37a2134a
 

Not exactly...

From his statement to the House of Lords:
For engaging in this debate, I have been the subject of a series of harassment campaigns, including vexatious legal actions, police visits, magazine articles misrepresenting my positions, threatening letters hand-delivered to my home, my wife’s business address released online...anything and everything has been tried to silence me and prevent people from hearing the reasonable fears many women have about the impact of this ideology on their sex-based rights. I have also lost work. As a result of my sudden financial insecurity, my marriage was placed under such a severe strain that my wife and I finally agreed to separate.
 
Not exactly...

From his statement to the House of Lords:



Maybe he shouldn't have been such a relentlessly offensive transphobe who doubled down at every single opportunity, then.

Just a thought.


(And if he truly was losing work (in the media business, in which he had a humungous amount of stockpiled goodwill), that probably should have given him some sort of pointer as to the extremity of his transphobia. As should the involvement of the police, of course....)
 
Mentally ill people should be treated with compassion by society rather than making everyone else go along with their delusion.

Transsexuals are... transsexuals.
 
I am curious what, if any, sex-specific rights posters like London John and Suburban Turkey think females should have - including but not limited to spaces (violence shelters, changing rooms, health care, sports) and representation. Is anyone who argues for female based rights transphobic?
 
I don’t think it’s been mentioned yet that the Tavistock Gender Identity Development service (GIDS) was rated inadequate overall (inadequate or in need of improvement on all but one criteria) at the last inspection, and in response the management team was disbanded. However, this restructuring of management does not address the ideological capture behind the rise of the affirmation-only approach and silencing of dissent.

"Many records provided insufficient evidence of staff considering the specific needs of young people, such as autistic spectrum disorders"

"Staff had only recently begun to record consent and capacity or competence clearly for young people who might have impaired mental capacity or competence."

"We reviewed 35 care records. We found these records to be unstructured. Records did not provide evidence to show what staff were assessing. There was no clear rationale for clinical decision making."

"Whilst the criteria for considering referring young people for administration of hormone blockers was set out in the service specification, we saw no reference to this on any patient records……… it would be very difficult for the service to assess whether clinicians had made the correct decision in making a referral"

"This audit found that assessments of capacity, competency and consent had not been recorded in accordance with the established procedures in eight of the 11 records reviewed. The absence of a structured assessment had not been recorded as an incident for any of these records, despite the absence of a formal record of assessment potentially leading to a risk of medicines being administered unlawfully"

One positive point is that the service recently advertised for a clinical psychologist able to assess a range of mental health problems in young people, suggesting there may be a move away from attributing everything to gender issues.

….leaders of movements of a very powerful ideological commitment have managed to capture policy; both medically, professionally, in the media and in government, with no evidence base – it’s a purely highly politicised movement that has had these consequences.

- Dr David Bell, former Tavistock consultant psychiatrist.
 
Rolfe, Aber, anyone else in the UK or Scotland...

Can you fill me in on the Hate Crime bill that just passed? I've done some research, but it's hard to get a reasonable take on it, the articles are all firewalled to one side or the other.

As far as I can tell, they declined to include sex as a protected characteristic, which would feasibly make it not a hate crime for a misogynist to abuse or harass females for being female... and they also declined to include exception that would allow females to speak about the reality of sex as it pertains to them as a class.
 
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