Electric Vehicles

[Airfix]

What is needed is a standard for a modular battery form facto so that it can be slid in and out of the car.

Then you go to the charging station and they just swap a charged battery for your depleted one.

As battery technology improves you get a battery with more capacity swapped out.

Agreed.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I don't think that's practical and it's probably a solution to a problem that's already solved. The Nissan Leaf is a lesson learned. With liquid cooling it seems as if the batteries in an EV will last as long as the engine in an IC car. And designing a battery pack that might get swapped every time the car needs a recharge is a pretty big engineering challenge in its own right.

It would only be worthwhile if the swap is a lot faster than recharging and you need a system that safely disconnects, lifts out a heavy unit without ever dropping or damaging it and reconnects a new one to reliably deliver many hundreds of amps through whatever connector you devise. The battery will also be low down and somewhere in the middle of the car to protect it.

Making that job fast, safe, reliable and for cost reasons probably unstaffed seems like a tall order. One person can run the till at an 8 pump self-service filling station and serve customers coffee in their shop too. They couldn't do that and drive some specialist forklift truck to swap 8 battery packs too.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Also if we're waiting on a bunch of competing car companies to agree on a universal battery format we might as well just wait on "Literal Magic Cars Powered by Fairy Dust."

 

[acbytesla]

Probably less than 1/100th of a cent if my math is right.

BTW, a gas station I went to once had a sign offering hot dogs for ".99 cents each." I was tempted to ask for 100 of them to go.

You're right. I.used 29 cents a Kwh which is a high price. The decimal point was off by two places The price would be $ 0.00725.

I'm fired.

 

[acbytesla]

Good for you. But I go the other way whenever possible. Such that a $20 bill in my wallet may last for many weeks, or a month or more without getting used.

For me, it makes sense. With some big ticket items - health insurance, auto and home insurance, cellular bills as examples - and the vast majority of daily spending going on the card, we average around $3,500 to $4,500 a month on our credit card bills. We always pay the balance due, no matter what. With the cards paying between 1% and 3% rewards, that’s typically $40 to $50 a month we can use towards Amazon purchases, or whatever. Not a huge amount, but it’s free money and it adds up.

As an aside, we use ApplePay whenever we can. It’s just a bit more secure, with our actual credit card number never being revealed. Since we’ve had our credit cards compromised three times, that’s a plus. Never cost us anything, but still a hassle transferring all the recurring payments to the new card.

Your way is better. I know that. But I like having cash. Probably very irrational. But still.

 

[Shalamar]

I don't think that's practical and it's probably a solution to a problem that's already solved. The Nissan Leaf is a lesson learned. With liquid cooling it seems as if the batteries in an EV will last as long as the engine in an IC car. And designing a battery pack that might get swapped every time the car needs a recharge is a pretty big engineering challenge in its own right.

It would only be worthwhile if the swap is a lot faster than recharging and you need a system that safely disconnects, lifts out a heavy unit without ever dropping or damaging it and reconnects a new one to reliably deliver many hundreds of amps through whatever connector you devise. The battery will also be low down and somewhere in the middle of the car to protect it.

Making that job fast, safe, reliable and for cost reasons probably unstaffed seems like a tall order. One person can run the till at an 8 pump self-service filling station and serve customers coffee in their shop too. They couldn't do that and drive some specialist forklift truck to swap 8 battery packs too.

I know Tesla was considering battery swaps at one point. Pull into a station, your battery is removed and replaced within a handful of minutes. It was scrapped.

Likely scrapped due to rapidly changing and improving battery technology, as well as Batteries being part of the frame of the cars. They can be serviced and replaced, but it's far from a fast process.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

You're right. I.used 29 cents a Kwh which is a high price. The decimal point was off by two places The price would be $ 0.00725.

I'm fired.

Just for the record, the price they quoted doesn't appear correct either. It also has the decimal point wrong, by about 2 or so places.

You have a correct price here. Since you quoted it in dollars it is 7 tenths of a penny in other words.

 

[acbytesla]

Just for the record, the price they quoted doesn't appear correct either. It also has the decimal point wrong, by about 2 or so places.

You have a correct price here. Since you quoted it in dollars it is 7 tenths of a penny in other words.

Yep.

In all fairness, one doesn't know what they used for the price.

 

[Filippo Lippi]

I repeat. Battery swapping is here. Well, there.

It was trialled here (Europe), I believe and we didn't like it, just like we didn't like battery rental on the first Renault Zoes.

It seemed sensible when battery prices were much higher, indeed the sales pitch seems to have been "an ev, without having to buy a battery." But someone was paying for those 1+n batteries per car. And the robots.

With a charging model you have 1 battery per car and far fewer moving parts

 

[jadebox]

Just for the record, the price they quoted doesn't appear correct either. It also has the decimal point wrong, by about 2 or so places.

You have a correct price here. Since you quoted it in dollars it is 7 tenths of a penny in other words.

Ironically, I made the Verizon mistake!

I recall that I noticed the ".99 cent" hot dog ad around the time I first heard the Verizon story. I think I told someone at work about it and he introduced me to the Verizon story.

 

[Disbelief]

I also, despite some nay saying, am becoming a fan of electric cars, though I think it will be some time before I get one here.

When and if I do, it will probably still not be the only car in the stable, because there are still emergencies and the like, where one needs a car at odd times, or for unusually long times, and can't work easily around charging.

One other thing, which perhaps Disbelief can elaborate on, has to do with climate. Here in Vermont, we can expect to need the heat on in some degree a large part of the year, and in this season, essentially all on all the time, plus defrosting at both ends. It's also dark a lot, and we need lights a lot. I suspect this would have an effect on both range and battery life. Can you give an idea of how much?

Wasn't ignoring you, just wasn't on over the weekend. Someone stated 20-50% reduction, and that's pretty accurate depending on just how cold it gets. Just another hurdle they are working on with battery technology, so we'll see how they overcome it.

I'm interested to see how well they'll work on the pickups, specifically for towing. Towing the trailer makes for a dramatic decrease in gas mileage, so wonder what battery drain would be.

 

[acbytesla]

Wasn't ignoring you, just wasn't on over the weekend. Someone stated 20-50% reduction, and that's pretty accurate depending on just how cold it gets. Just another hurdle they are working on with battery technology, so we'll see how they overcome it.

I'm interested to see how well they'll work on the pickups, specifically for towing. Towing the trailer makes for a dramatic decrease in gas mileage, so wonder what battery drain would be.

Not really sure. I do know that there are Electric Semis being tested.

 

[jadebox]

Wasn't ignoring you, just wasn't on over the weekend. Someone stated 20-50% reduction, and that's pretty accurate depending on just how cold it gets. Just another hurdle they are working on with battery technology, so we'll see how they overcome it.

I'm interested to see how well they'll work on the pickups, specifically for towing. Towing the trailer makes for a dramatic decrease in gas mileage, so wonder what battery drain would be.

My car (and I assume other EVs) allows you to schedule "preconditioning" which warms the battery and heats the cabin while the car is still plugged in. This can make a big difference in the cold-weather range. Here in Florida, it also helps by cooling the battery and cabin before I head to work.

Towing is a huge drain on fuel economy when I pull our enclosed trailer behind our SUV. Miles per gallon on the highway drops from about 18 or 20 to 7 to 10. There is no reason to expect that the effect on EV range would be any different. I think the instant torque provided by EVs will be nice for towing, though.

I am annoyed at cars like the Mustang Mach-E being described as SUVs. If I can't tow my small trailer with it, it isn't an SUV! Hmmph.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Not really sure. I do know that there are Electric Semis being tested.

Several are in the pipeline. As always these are manufacturer claims with varying degrees of any external verification, so add as much salt as you think they require.

Tesla Motor's Semi. Claimed performance of 0-60 in 20 seconds with a 80k load and a 500 mile range. Price of about 180,000 dollars.

Freightliner's eCascadia. Claims a 275 mile range a 80% recharge in 90 minutes.

Volvo VNR. Claims a 150 mile range.

Nikola. Working on both an electric and hydrogen semi, but their electric one is start to get the odor of vaporware to it, so extra salt to that one.

 

[Disbelief]

Not really sure. I do know that there are Electric Semis being tested.

Multiple semis and multiple pickups are coming. Just curious how the towing will function in real world applications for the pickups.

As for the semis, the difference with those is that they'll be able to do more aerodynamics with the cab to help, while a pickup won't have that luxury while towing.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Ford could make a killer app product by just making an F-150 electric, and using the hood space to put a gasoline engine that could function as both a range extender and a generator for camping / work sites / etc.

 

[acbytesla]

Multiple semis and multiple pickups are coming. Just curious how the towing will function in real world applications for the pickups.

As for the semis, the difference with those is that they'll be able to do more aerodynamics with the cab to help, while a pickup won't have that luxury while towing.

I imagine they will have the torque necessary. As to the impact on economy, my guess its impact will be similar to what we see in ICEs. Might make as much as a 50% reduction in range. Too many variables. Are we pulling 2 thousand pounds or 15?

 

[acbytesla]

Ford could make a killer app product by just making an F-150 electric, and using the hood space to put a gasoline engine that could function as both a range extender and a generator for camping / work sites / etc.

I like it. That would be a heavy beast though.

 

[JoeMorgue]

ETA: Probably should have checked to see if Ford had already had that idea.

The 2021 Ford F-150 with PowerBoost Hybrid Engine with "Pro-power Onboard" that can power devices up to a 240v, 4000w arc welder onsite.

https://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/fe...82215968958!e!!g!!electric f 150&gclsrc=aw.ds

Not exactly what I was thinking but close, and obviously coming from the same base idea.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Widespread charging stations would coincidentally solve a different problem I've had on my mind lately.

Sometimes I imagine equipping a big van to live in full-time and not having an apartment or house anymore. Two of the main obstacles to that are winter heating & summer cooling. I wouldn't want to run the engine for hours just to power those, but running them on just the battery wouldn't last long, even with a solar roof. I've imagined the idea of places where people who want to live in their vehicles could park & plug in when necessary and pay significantly less rent than normal housing would cost (essentially just renting a garage instead of a whole home), but no such places seem to exist. There are places where motorhomes can plug in, but they're normally near tourist sites, not cities & suburbs where most people need to live because that's where the jobs are. So they only help people on vacation, not people who want to live that way. If there were charging places all around, I could plug in my live-in van anywhere.

You are looking for rv parks, rv resorts or rv ranches. I don’t know the difference. Some state parks will also offer those services. A few national parks. The hard part is that you have stay limits in some of them.

Btw, the battery requirements to run an AC are astronomical.