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Cancel culture IRL

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Give them a read, think about the underlying pattern, decide which of those 'censorings' you think are reasonable, and which are not... and why you hold those views.

I'd like to skip over the incredibly stupid deep-dive into a) whether or not "cancel culture" is a good name for the phenomenon under discussion and b) whether or not this phenomenon is new. I don't give a rat's ass if people agree with the nomenclature, or if it's been around for a million years - I haven't given a crap about that since page 1.

I'd also really like to avoid the shallow slings of partisan politics insisting that it's all one side or the other doing the cancelling, or whether it's all one side or the other complaining about cancelling. It's neither of those things, it's a mix that affects all political viewpoints.

I'd much rather discuss whether or not this type of socially-prompted censorship and deplatforming is ethical or reasonable. I'd also like to discuss whether there are any feasible ways to make sure it only happens in reasonable ways, and what the risk is of it getting out of hand and turning into a mob-based style of McCarthyism, enforcing moral conformity.

Those are my concerns and the things I'm interested in discussion.

No honest discussion regarding “de-platforming” can happen until you acknowledge that in most cases these are private businesses enforcing their own policies as they see fit.

How do you balance that against what is presumably your position (as implied by your argument) that the people using the products of these private businesses have unlimited rights to use them?
 
No doubt and hopefully by a young author ( and publisher ) that has the stones to tell the Twitter outrage mobs to go pound sand. Are we talking $3.50 USD or Canadian? That's like five bucks Canadian.

If the reason you aren’t writing the things you want to write is because you’re scared of what people on Twitter will say, you might not be cut out for a career as an author. Perhaps trade school is a better option.
 
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If only there was some useful catchall term for things like protesting shows (with the intent of shutting them down), boycotting entertainers, encouraging mass blocking (e.g. the block bot) and trying to get people fired for offensive things they say or publish outside of the workplace. While we're at it, we can throw in efforts to disinvite or deplatform controversial speakers like Ayaan Hirsi Ali or Ted Honderich, along with efforts to cancel offensive public displays such as the Black Mass.

Ah well, guess we'll make due without. [emoji1745]

Why *should* there be some weird catch-ll term for "when left-wingers protest something, deplatform someone, someone gets fired for being a bigot in front of a camera, or decide individually they don't like a youtube channel or tv show" - never mind "refuses to publish something they own the copyright to or changes the name of a product they manufacture", which is what the latest non-controversies were about? Those are all fundamentally different actions. Some are against public celebrities, and some against private individuals. Some are mass efforts, and some are just an individual saying "eh, never mind". Some are just the employer (or copyright owner, and so on) deciding "Y'know, I'm done with you acting a fool in public, you're just not that important."

That's the point - and why "cancel Culture" is just so much meaningless caterwauling.
 
I have to agree with the “cancel culture is ********” idea.

We have always loved it when famous people get into some scandal or other. Tabloids exist to profit on the outrage/titillation. The only difference now is that we are in the Information Age. Outrage is more visible now.

Consider Gina Carano. She has a forum to say whatever dumbass stuff is on her mind. The general public has a forum to react to it. Disney can watch all this happen and say, “woah! Fire her because we don’t want our pure innocent brands to be tainted by her controversial opinion.”

This is more visible now because pre-internet, we really didn’t know what “The Stars” really thought or who they really were. They carefully protected their image and only told the press what they wanted the press to hear. Now, they willingly show us and some of us don’t like it. When they did bad stuff, it was easy for them to cover up. Now anyone can easily publicize an accusation.

If there’s been a cultural shift at all, it’s been towards narcissistically sharing every detail of your life and every random nuance of thought on social media.

Fundamentally, though, there’s nothing different about the culture. Fatty Arbuckle got “cancelled” in the 20’s, fer Christ’s sake, on a wave of scandal mongering in the press. If there is such a thing as “cancel culture” it’s been woven into the fabric of our society since...well, forever.
 
Fundamentally, though, there’s nothing different about the culture.
Given all the references to the Hollywood blacklist upthread—back in the 1950s people were banned from producing, acting, or writing for (allegedly) having Communist sympathies—I think we can all agree that canceling famous people for having offensive views is nothing remotely new. The question isn't whether it's new, but whether we're overdoing it now.
 
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Why *should* there be some weird catch-ll term for "when left-wingers protest something, deplatform someone, someone gets fired for being a bigot in front of a camera, or decide individually they don't like a youtube channel or tv show"
I have not at any point tried to limit the meaning of "cancel culture" to efforts coming from the left, as you may well have noticed since the only link I included in my previous post was an attempted cancellation originating from the Catholic Church.

Why do you assert that this is what the phrase should mean, given that it's not in the dictionary definition?
 
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Given all the references to the Hollywood blacklist upthread—back in the 1950s people were banned from producing, acting, or writing for (allegedly) having Communist sympathies—I think we can all agree that canceling famous people for having offensive views is nothing remotely new. The question isn't whether it's new, but whether we're overdoing it now.

Weird that you ignore all the ways the blacklisting of the ‘50s is wildly different from anything resembling “cancel culture” today that have been pointed out numerous times in this thread.

Haha... I’m just kidding. It’s not weird at all. We all know why you ignore it.
 
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I liked Emily's Cat's suggestion.

I think everyone has already weighed in with their feelings on the use of the term "Cancel culture" and whether it represents a major crisis.

It might be more interesting to discuss more specifically how particular instances of the current power of crowds and media.
 
Given all the references to the Hollywood blacklist upthread—back in the 1950s people were banned from producing, acting, or writing for (allegedly) having Communist sympathies—I think we can all agree that canceling famous people for having offensive views is nothing remotely new. The question isn't whether it's new, but whether we're overdoing it now.


There’s no way to measure “overdoing.” Maybe we were underdoing it in the ore-internet days.
 
I liked Emily's Cat's suggestion.

I think everyone has already weighed in with their feelings on the use of the term "Cancel culture" and whether it represents a major crisis.

It might be more interesting to discuss more specifically how particular instances of the current power of crowds and media.

“Crowds” have no more power than they ever did. It’s just that technology has amplified their voices.
 
“Crowds” have no more power than they ever did. It’s just that technology has amplified their voices.

You know, I did pause over what to write after "instances of" in the hopes it wouldn't be misinterpreted in the charged context of this thread.

Let's say this.


I think at least the vocal posters on this thread, regardless of their positions around the term "cancel culture" agree on the following.

  • There have always been consequences for actions.
  • People have always sefl censored around some issues.
  • The public at large has always had some power of social pressure on each other and financial pressure on companies.
  • Companies have always responded to public reaction.

We don't need to agree that the current state of these sorts of things should be called "cancel culture" or is worse than previous conditions to see that the nuts and bolts of these, just like every other facet of society vary with the times, with trends and with technology.

I don't think dating is different in any terrible or massive way from 20 years ago, but we could talk about the way Tinder, OKcupid and social media profiles affect dating.
 
Fair enough, I'm definitely guilty of wallowing a bit too much in the semantics in this thread and I'm happy to talk about the meat.

On the first article, the issue of YouTube putting restrictions on livestreaming.

Here's my background framing.

YouTube, like many social media platforms has been used to do a lot of unsavory things. Social media has even been cited as a major force in organizing the Rohingya genocide. YouTube was certainly used to spread a lot of political misinformation around US elections.

I think social media companines are right to be concerned about being used to organize violence or spread misinformation. And they're right to take steps to try to curb those sorts of misuse. I fully acknowledge their motivations are probably not all puppy dogs and patriotism. But whether it's in fear from their brand being tainted, fear that government may try to step in if they can't show they're regulating themselves, or on the off chance that it's motivated by real ethical concerns. Those motivations don't matter too much because they all converge on "Do what you can to at least try to minimize the dangerous stuff".

Social media services are in a weird liminal space that we as a society haven't really fully understood yet, and I think we fail when we try to shove them in categories that don't fit.

They're not really like any publisher in the traditional sense. They don't and can't scrutinize every piece of content.

But they're not really like a neutral service like UPS either.

If you send something weird through UPS that's a communication between two individuals. What people post on YT becomes a part of their ecosystem of search results, recommendations, communities etc.

So we can't say that the content is none of their business like a package shipping company, because the content spills out in a lot of ways. That's what makes it "social". And we can't say they need to individually approve of every piece of video with minute discretion. The volume is so huge that would be impossible, and that high volume is part of their social model. And even if they could make millions and millions of judgement calls every day, people probably wouldn't like that any better.

So the only tools available are going to be broader guidelines.

I'm not inside the YT meetings about how they decided live streams showing guns was a rule they were going to enforce. And I'm also not going to say that's a perfect rule.

But I think however they set the rules to try to manage the real ugly stuff, there's bound to be collateral damage. And that's a shame, but I can't see a great alternative.


I do value independent journalism. But I think if independent media of ANY kind relies on one other business for everything, they're going to be vulnerable to policy decisions that don't have anything to do with them.

There was some similar anger when both YT and FB changed their algorythms in a way that made it much harder for some independent creators who had been using the two services for their livelihood. A couple creators I really enjoyed had to stop making content because it just wasn't profitable anymore. And that sucks. But, I don't see retaining the old model as something YT owed to them either morally or legally.

I recognize that YT is a profit driven company and they're going to take the actions in their own best interest.

In all, I don't see this as part of a cultural push to enforce values and punish any kind of wrong thinking. I see a crude practical attempt to limit truly harmful content. And unfortunately, crude might be the only option right now.

Thank you for a very well thought out and cogent post! :D
 
I think the primary problem is that companies are being looked at as public platforms. Twitter, YouTube and other social media do not exist to act as a proxy of the town square, they exist to make money. As such, they have content rules and limits that are often clumsy and counter-intuitive, but in the end thought to produce the best result for the investment.

The same is true of Amazon where a single complaint of IP infringement can knock a brand off the platform for months because it just isn't a big deal to Amazon that it is right, it just wants to avoid liability.

The problem is not that the companies are acting the way they are acting, the problem is that we have allowed them to ascend to a place of such importance in our lives. Companies act to increase revenue and decrease liabilities. They don't care about whether their rules have been gamed by one political party or the other unless it impacts their bottom line.

Are you logging on to Twitter? Are you watching ads on YouTube? Are you buying stuff from Amazon? Then you are to blame for the actions of these companies.

Steal a page from the cancel culture: don't let entities you don't like make money from you.

I despise twitter, it makes me insane. Not necessarily the content (although I'm sure some of that would) but the format itself.

I gave in and subscribed to YouTube so I don't have to watch the ads, even though I don't actually watch a lot of stuff. I've only got a handful of channels that I subscribe to, but it's worth it to me to stop the stupid ads interrupting in the middle of the thing I'm watching, usually midsentence.

Amazon... now there's an interesting one. I used to use Amazon a lot, it was convenient, easy to find stuff, all in one place. But over the last few years, I've started avoiding it. I'll use it to look for basic ideas, but if I find something I like, I'll go directly to the seller whenever possible. I do this because Amazon has been coddling outright knock-offs, and they've become notorious for taking a product made by a small company, seeing it sell well, then magically a bunch of chinese made exact replicas show up for less and drive the small business out. I like small businesses, and I'm willing to pay more for goods made in the US, or for certain types of goods made in ethical ways (I spend an absurd amount on papadams made in India, by women, in a women owned company).
 
It's amazing when people in power were keeping people down for *checks notes* all of history we didn't have to have a side discussion about authors being scared to write outside their personal experience.

This is.. well... just a really dumb thing to say. NONE OF US WERE ALIVE IN ORDER TO COMPLAIN ABOUT IT THEN.

The linear flow of time isn't a difficult concept for most people to grasp.
 
Weird that you ignore all the ways the blacklisting of the ‘50s is wildly different from anything resembling “cancel culture” today that have been pointed out numerous times in this thread.
Weird that this doesn't affect my point at all, since those of us concerned with "cancel culture" here on the forum have made it clear that we don't care if it's coming from the left or the right.

That said, I've already addressed these distinctions without a difference upthread.

(Incidentally, do you honestly believe the ideology-based blacklists would've been just fine had HUAC not been involved?)

It might be more interesting to discuss more specifically how particular instances of the current power of crowds and media.
If only someone would come up with a list of specific examples.
 
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Weird that this doesn't affect my point at all, since those of us concerned with "cancel culture" have made it clear that we don't care if it's coming from the left or the right.

Yeah, that’s... not the difference.

That said, I've already addressed these distinctions without a difference upthread.

Oh okay, I must have missed the part where you addressed a government body investigating private citizens based on privately-held opinions or even just suspicion of those opinions as a “distinction without difference” from Gina Carano not having her contract renewed because of her own stupid behavior.

Be so kind as to refresh my memory.

(Incidentally, do you honestly believe the ideology-based blacklists would've been just fine had HUAC not been involved?)

Why would I engage in a bad faith discussion in which you want to ignore relevant details to help you prop up your otherwise weak argument?
 
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