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Cancel culture IRL

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In the opinion of many older people, aren't things always going to hell because the young 'uns are doing things differently than back in the good old days?

Pretty much my point, yes.

I say this being pretty old myself. But I always get a chuckle when people my age (including myself) start saying the same things about young people today that people of my parents' or grandparents' generation said about my generation.

Yeah, some of us have read enough about history to realize this.

In fact, the first it was brought to my attention when on our last day of college, an elderly professor read this gem to us: "The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

And just when I'm busy rolling my eyes, you know, tch, the usual complaint about by generation... he announces that that's a quote from Socrates, circa 400 BCE. Turns out we weren't the first generation to be complained about :p
 
But anyway, imagine the low ratings really were due to a grassroots boycott - then what?
Then you take the time to stop and ask yourself whether the boycott or cancellation effort you've been considering joining is grounded on moral principles or not. Oftentimes, it seems to me, people just enjoy getting in on the latest craze. Sometimes they seem to really relish a sort of performative self-righteousness, showing off to the others on the same bandwagon. Saw this often enough growing up with evangelicals, and I still see it these days among those who do not claim faith.
 
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We should care about both of them, of course, and do our best to counter both of them with evidence-based medicine. We may well need a celebrity doctor (Fauci? Lipkin?) to address one of them, though.

But you seemed to imply it was worth firing the clinician over, but not the celebrity actor. I'm not sure how you draw that line.

The celebrity expressing anti-vax opinions on social media will do far more damage than a relatively unknown clinician, so shouldn't there be more focus where the damage can be the worst?
 
Then you take the time to stop and ask yourself whether the boycott or cancellation effort you've been considering joining is grounded on moral principles or not. Oftentimes, it seems to me, people just enjoy getting in on the latest craze. Sometimes they seem to really relish a sort of performative self-righteousness, showing off to the others on the same bandwagon. Saw this often enough growing up with evangelicals, and I still see it these days among those who do not claim faith.

If all you are saying in this thread is that "one should be careful before joining a mob", then I feel like a lot of time has been wasted.

I think there was an assumption that you were actually looking for solutions to a problem you perceived in society rather than suggesting phrases for our next needle stitch project.

Help me pick out some thread colors and I can get that on a pillow this weekend.
 
Then you take the time to stop and ask yourself whether the boycott or cancellation effort you've been considering joining is grounded on moral principles or not. Oftentimes, it seems to me, people just enjoy getting in on the latest craze. Sometimes they seem to really relish a sort of performative self-righteousness, showing off to the others on the same bandwagon. Saw this often enough growing up with evangelicals, and I still see it these days among those who do not claim faith.

That seems rather woolly to me.
 
But you seemed to imply it was worth firing the clinician over, but not the celebrity actor. I'm not sure how you draw that line.
If the clinician is doing the medical malpractice on account of her anti-vax beliefs, then of course she needs to be let go or at least moved to a position where vaccinations aren't part of the practice. The line I'm trying to draw (when it comes to employment) is about how they do at their actual job.

The celebrity expressing anti-vax opinions on social media will do far more damage than a relatively unknown clinician, so shouldn't there be more focus where the damage can be the worst?
What solution would you propose? If it's cancellation (i.e. temporary unemployment) does that make their social media platform go away?

If all you are saying in this thread is that "one should be careful before joining a mob", then I feel like a lot of time has been wasted.
On a recreational discussion board? Oh noes!

But seriously, cultural problems generally call for cultural solutions.
 
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But seriously, cultural problems generally call for cultural solutions.

Now all we have to do is clearly define the problem.

I know it lies somewhere between a low-rated sitcom getting cancelled over 20 years ago and an obnoxious millionaire not being allowed to play Star Wars anymore, but we haven’t quite zeroed in on it yet.
 
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Edit to remove response to content removed for rule 0 and rule 12.


I know it lies somewhere between a low-rated sitcom getting cancelled over 20 years ago and an obnoxious millionaire not being allowed to play Star Wars anymore, but we haven’t quite zeroed in on it yet.
I'd ask whether you think it was moral for individuals to engage in either of these cancellation efforts, but that would likely leave me open to more personal attacks. :)
 
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If the clinician is doing the medical malpractice on account of her anti-vax beliefs, then of course she needs to be let go or at least moved to a position where vaccinations aren't part of the practice. The line I'm trying to draw (when it comes to employment) is about how they do at their actual job.

Posting anti-vax opinions does not mean they aren't doing their job. Those are two different standards. Why would you posit one thing and assume the later?

What solution would you propose? If it's cancellation (i.e. temporary unemployment) does that make their social media platform go away?

Free speech discussing how you find their misinformation off putting, personally. Maybe not supporting them as an artist anymore if you previously did. Let people associated with them know that you find that association offensive, if you actually do find it offensive. You know, that newfangled thing some people call "cancel culture".

On a recreational discussion board? Oh noes!

But seriously, cultural problems generally call for cultural solutions.

Then we are in agreement: Don't join mobs without careful consideration.

Progress Update: After careful consideration I'm not joining any call to end cancel culture, just yet.
 
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Not sure why you so often seem to personalize like this. Does it serve to persuade?

I’m sorry if you interpreted that as a personal attack rather than an observation of exactly how it looks.

You seem to want to claim some higher moral ground here without even really explaining what “moral principles” are at stake. It comes across as disingenuous posturing.

I'd ask whether you think it was moral for individuals to engage in either of these cancellation efforts, but that would likely leave me open to more personal attacks. :)

It’s such a weird, pointless question and ultimately feels like you just want to be the self-appointed sheriff of Morality Town.
 
After careful consideration I'm not joining any call to end cancel culture, just yet.

Are you trying to cancel the cancellation of cancel culture?! Oh, you are so cancel cancel cancel cancel cancelled for this blatant cancel cancel cancel cancellation!!
 
Are you trying to cancel the cancellation of cancel culture?! Oh, you are so cancel cancel cancel cancel cancelled for this blatant cancel cancel cancel cancellation!!

The funny thing is how close that is to the actual mentality the "OMG CANCEL CULTURE!" people really have.

It's all the same "How dare you not tolerate my intolerance."
 
Posting anti-vax opinions does not mean they aren't doing their job. Those are two different standards. Why would you posit one thing and assume the later?
Here is what I wrote:
"If the clinician is doing the medical malpractice on account of her anti-vax beliefs..."

Not seeing an assumption here, so much as a conditional.

Free speech discussing how you find their misinformation off putting, personally.
Sounds fine. Talking about your feelings doesn't seem as useful as a factual refutation, though.

Maybe not supporting them as an artist anymore if you previously did.
Maybe, or maybe not. Seems silly to avoid an ensemble cast show because of just one of the actors; even sillier to modify your subscription to an entire IP catalog over it. (I mean, so it seems to me.)

Let people associated with them know that you find that association offensive, if you actually do find it offensive.
Not sure why taking offense should necessarily be in play here. Anti-vax disinfo is harmful regardless of whether it gives us feelings of revulsion or indignation.

You know, that newfangled thing some people call "cancel culture".
I'm not sure why people think it's anything new. I mean, the phrase is fairly new, but that's it.

After careful consideration I'm not joining any call to end cancel culture, just yet.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that boycotts and cancellations should never happen. Are they?

ETA: I don't think anyone here is arguing that boycotts and cancellations are always justified. Are they?
 
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I don't think anyone here is arguing that boycotts and cancellations should never happen. Are they?

That’s an excellent question, because I honestly don’t know. I see a lot of hand-wringing and pseudo-philosophical ponderings about “moral principles”, but not a whole lot of arguments based on specific concerns.
 
That’s an excellent question, because I honestly don’t know. I see a lot of hand-wringing and pseudo-philosophical ponderings about “moral principles”, but not a whole lot of arguments based on specific concerns.

It's not that they should never happen, and it's not even protests and boycotts as a whole. It is a matter of principle - specifically reciprocity and infringement on freedoms.

It has a lot to do with the methods being used and the justification for those methods... and whether or not there are any guardrails that keep the same methods and justifications from being used in other situations.

First, let's look at the infringement of freedoms element.

Consider some of the boycotts when I was a kid, against tuna companies that were catching dolphins in their nets. Some consumers didn't like that, they told the company and other people about it, and they organized a boycott of the product. The boycott is voluntary on the part of other consumers - any consumers who didn't care about dolphins could still buy that product, the people boycotting didn't attack or harass other shoppers. Enough people cared about dolphins that in the end, the company changed how they fished, and consumers were satisfied. The boycott was against the practices of the company as a whole.

Now consider the case brought up earlier about the lead singer of some band who said some nasty stuff. I don't think there's any problem at all with people deciding not to buy that band's songs. That's a pretty standard boycott, and since the singer is an integral element of the band as a company, it's not really something divorceable from the product.

Now, what if instead of boycotting the songs, and refusing the pay for the songs, the people offended boycotted the sellers of the song? Now they're depriving other people of the choice to buy songs from that band. Now they're infringing on other people's agency. That I have a problem with. It would be akin to those dolphin-loving boycotters boycotting all of the grocery stores that carried that brand of tuna, and insisting that the grocers aren't allowed to sell that tuna at all. That also means that other shoppers who don't care about dolphins are being denied their choice of tuna.

That shifts from individuals making a voluntary choice to express their individual perspective on the actions the company responsible... and becomes a group of individuals forcing their perspective onto both other individuals and other companies that are only secondarily related to the problem. It's coercion, not agency.

It's the same principle in situations where an individual person makes an individual statement as a private citizen... and anonymous actors demand their firing from their employer. They aren't acting against the cause of the offense - they're pressuring secondary sources instead. In some cases, the mob extends that pressure to family members as well, even if the family member didn't actually do anything wrong.

I recall a few years ago there was a white nationalist who worked at a restaurant, and gave an interview to someone. People were (unsurprisingly) appalled at his views. People pressured and threatened the owner of the restaurant to fire him. The restaurant owner didn't hold those views, the restaurant owner hadn't done anything wrong. But the owner was threatened with punishment if he didn't take action against the white nationalist. The people appalled at his view also did the same thing with his wife and his brother. There was no information about whether either of them held the same views... but both of their employers were hounded to fire them as well.

Similarly, there was the case more recently of the baker whose daughter had made some pretty nasty anti-semitic comments on line several years in the past. When she told her father about it, he was appalled, and he fired her from her position at his bakery. But that wasn't enough for the angered customers, who threatened his suppliers and his buyers if they continued to do business with him. The owner of the bakery didn't make the remarks, and he had already taken action to fire his daughter.

Those are the kind of over-reach that I find to be unacceptable. Those actions step over the bound of expressing one's displeasure with the source of one's anger, and moves to imposing one's beliefs and will on external parties in order to maximize extrajudicial punishment for things that are not crimes against the source.

Now let's consider reciprocity.

This takes a little more self-reflection, and consideration for the long-term consequences of the approach.

At heart, complaints against cancel culture are complaints against punishing people for their beliefs. Several posters in this thread have essentially expressed that people are allowed to belief what they want, but that speaking or communicating those beliefs constitutes an action, and that the action can and should be punished. But that moral judgement isn't something that can be codified in a way that protects against abuse.

The methods that are being supported could just as easily - and just as logically - be turned against you in the future.

I'm going to make an analogy here, and draw a parallel to illustrate this. It's difficult to do, because most of us on ISF share the same core values. I'm trying to find something that will resonate but also be extensible enough to demonstrate the risk.

Back in the 50s, communism was seen as an existential threat to the US way of life. Communism is a belief, a political ideology. Because it was viewed by so many people as a morally unacceptable and dangerous belief, steps were taken to stop the threat it represented. People were blacklisted, came under surveillance, forced out of jobs, and otherwise mistreated due to their beliefs. Most people nowadays look back at the McCarthy era as a horrible and unconstitutional travesty, and think that we should never have behaved in such a way.

I see the same thing beginning now. I see the same McCarthy-esque persecution when it comes to Trump supporters, to Republicans as a whole, and even to conservatives in general. That was the impetus behind a lot of the reporting and subsequent harassment and persecution of Nick Sandmann. Because he was wearing a MAGA hat, it was assumed that he was an evil person, and thus must be at fault. The reports from the media were highly skewed and painted him as a villain. On the basis of the assumptions about his political beliefs, many people felt that it was completely justifiable to send him (and his family) death threats, and to pressure his school to expel him. Not because he was perceived to have actually committed a crime, or to have engaged in violence, threats or other antisocial behavior... but because he was wearing a MAGA hat. All he did was stand there and smile. But by doing so while wearing a hat with a "bad" political message, he was deemed as a horrible racist person with a "punchable face".

Even after the full story came out, many people - some on ISF - still think that the treatment Sandmann received was justified and acceptable because he was wearing a MAGA hat. Think about that for a moment. Even after having been definitively shown that the initial reporting was false and plain wrong... some people still think he deserved to receive death threats and to be expelled because of his political persuasion.

Now here's the challenging part of this. What if the tables turn? What if, 10 years from now, it's not conservatism that is viewed as evil and unacceptable, but liberalism? What if it is your own political beliefs that are painted as socially unacceptable and justifying retaliatory measures such as Sandmann faced?

Is there any objective reason that would prevent that from happening? Or is it nothing more than your deeply held belief that your views are morally right?

The anti-communists believed that their views were morally right, and that justified their abuse of communists in the US. The anti-trumpers believed (still believe) that their views are morally right, and that justifies the abuse of Nick Sandmann. In the future, there's no guarantee that it will not be the anti-liberals who believe their views are morally right, and that justifies their abuse of you.

those are the dangers inherent in the principles espoused to rationalize "cancel culture". That it's not new is irrelevant. It wasn't new when it was witch burnings, it wasn't new when it was the crusades and the inquisition, and it wasn't new when it was McCarthyism.

It's not new, but it is dangerous.
 
Back in the 50s, communism was seen as an existential threat to the US way of life. Communism is a belief, a political ideology. Because it was viewed by so many people as a morally unacceptable and dangerous belief, steps were taken to stop the threat it represented. People were blacklisted, came under surveillance, forced out of jobs, and otherwise mistreated due to their beliefs. Most people nowadays look back at the McCarthy era as a horrible and unconstitutional travesty, and think that we should never have behaved in such a way.

Theres a really big KEY difference between "cancel culture" and McCartyhism. McCarthy wielded government backed power. Studios were highly pressured to blacklist known or even suspected communists. People went to jail. No one is being sent to jail for expressing right wing views, in the USA, currently, that I am aware of. Its a bad analogy. If we do get to that point, then I'll be railing for free speech and against government tyranny.

Now here's the challenging part of this. What if the tables turn? What if, 10 years from now, it's not conservatism that is viewed as evil and unacceptable, but liberalism? What if it is your own political beliefs that are painted as socially unacceptable and justifying retaliatory measures such as Sandmann faced?

First, thats "two sides of the same coin" nonsense. Having liberal views is not the same as anti-semitism and anti-vax BS (I really hope thats not what conservatism is now... but OK is it?). ETA: I'm using Carano as an example your now back to Sandmann who did not lose employment. What retalitary measures did Sandmann face? He didn't lose employment that I'm aware of. I don't think any news agencies willfulyl misreported, but they were too quick to make judgment without all the facts, and he's successfully sued them.

Second: OK, 10 years from now the GOP has gained control, peoples views go way way right wing, and employees are fired from companies for saying things like healthcare should be a right, or being pro-immigration , or being pro-union (as an aside I was at a company some years ago where an employee was trying to unionize and suddenly he didn't work there anymore). What is your solution to prevent this? I cannot figure out an acceptable one.

ETA2: BTW if you don't think the right ever does the "cancel culture" thing anymore, ask yourself why was Colin Kaepernick suddenly unable to find any work in the NFL? Sure the league didn't ban him or anything, but do you think any team owners wanted a mass boycott?
 
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It's not that they should never happen, and it's not even protests and boycotts as a whole. It is a matter of principle - specifically reciprocity and infringement on freedoms.

It has a lot to do with the methods being used and the justification for those methods... and whether or not there are any guardrails that keep the same methods and justifications from being used in other situations.

First, let's look at the infringement of freedoms element.

Consider some of the boycotts when I was a kid, against tuna companies that were catching dolphins in their nets. Some consumers didn't like that, they told the company and other people about it, and they organized a boycott of the product. The boycott is voluntary on the part of other consumers - any consumers who didn't care about dolphins could still buy that product, the people boycotting didn't attack or harass other shoppers. Enough people cared about dolphins that in the end, the company changed how they fished, and consumers were satisfied. The boycott was against the practices of the company as a whole.

Now consider the case brought up earlier about the lead singer of some band who said some nasty stuff. I don't think there's any problem at all with people deciding not to buy that band's songs. That's a pretty standard boycott, and since the singer is an integral element of the band as a company, it's not really something divorceable from the product.

Now, what if instead of boycotting the songs, and refusing the pay for the songs, the people offended boycotted the sellers of the song? Now they're depriving other people of the choice to buy songs from that band. Now they're infringing on other people's agency. That I have a problem with. It would be akin to those dolphin-loving boycotters boycotting all of the grocery stores that carried that brand of tuna, and insisting that the grocers aren't allowed to sell that tuna at all. That also means that other shoppers who don't care about dolphins are being denied their choice of tuna.

That shifts from individuals making a voluntary choice to express their individual perspective on the actions the company responsible... and becomes a group of individuals forcing their perspective onto both other individuals and other companies that are only secondarily related to the problem. It's coercion, not agency.

It's the same principle in situations where an individual person makes an individual statement as a private citizen... and anonymous actors demand their firing from their employer. They aren't acting against the cause of the offense - they're pressuring secondary sources instead. In some cases, the mob extends that pressure to family members as well, even if the family member didn't actually do anything wrong.

I recall a few years ago there was a white nationalist who worked at a restaurant, and gave an interview to someone. People were (unsurprisingly) appalled at his views. People pressured and threatened the owner of the restaurant to fire him. The restaurant owner didn't hold those views, the restaurant owner hadn't done anything wrong. But the owner was threatened with punishment if he didn't take action against the white nationalist. The people appalled at his view also did the same thing with his wife and his brother. There was no information about whether either of them held the same views... but both of their employers were hounded to fire them as well.

Similarly, there was the case more recently of the baker whose daughter had made some pretty nasty anti-semitic comments on line several years in the past. When she told her father about it, he was appalled, and he fired her from her position at his bakery. But that wasn't enough for the angered customers, who threatened his suppliers and his buyers if they continued to do business with him. The owner of the bakery didn't make the remarks, and he had already taken action to fire his daughter.

Those are the kind of over-reach that I find to be unacceptable. Those actions step over the bound of expressing one's displeasure with the source of one's anger, and moves to imposing one's beliefs and will on external parties in order to maximize extrajudicial punishment for things that are not crimes against the source.

Now let's consider reciprocity.

This takes a little more self-reflection, and consideration for the long-term consequences of the approach.

At heart, complaints against cancel culture are complaints against punishing people for their beliefs. Several posters in this thread have essentially expressed that people are allowed to belief what they want, but that speaking or communicating those beliefs constitutes an action, and that the action can and should be punished. But that moral judgement isn't something that can be codified in a way that protects against abuse.

The methods that are being supported could just as easily - and just as logically - be turned against you in the future.

I'm going to make an analogy here, and draw a parallel to illustrate this. It's difficult to do, because most of us on ISF share the same core values. I'm trying to find something that will resonate but also be extensible enough to demonstrate the risk.

Back in the 50s, communism was seen as an existential threat to the US way of life. Communism is a belief, a political ideology. Because it was viewed by so many people as a morally unacceptable and dangerous belief, steps were taken to stop the threat it represented. People were blacklisted, came under surveillance, forced out of jobs, and otherwise mistreated due to their beliefs. Most people nowadays look back at the McCarthy era as a horrible and unconstitutional travesty, and think that we should never have behaved in such a way.

I see the same thing beginning now. I see the same McCarthy-esque persecution when it comes to Trump supporters, to Republicans as a whole, and even to conservatives in general. That was the impetus behind a lot of the reporting and subsequent harassment and persecution of Nick Sandmann. Because he was wearing a MAGA hat, it was assumed that he was an evil person, and thus must be at fault. The reports from the media were highly skewed and painted him as a villain. On the basis of the assumptions about his political beliefs, many people felt that it was completely justifiable to send him (and his family) death threats, and to pressure his school to expel him. Not because he was perceived to have actually committed a crime, or to have engaged in violence, threats or other antisocial behavior... but because he was wearing a MAGA hat. All he did was stand there and smile. But by doing so while wearing a hat with a "bad" political message, he was deemed as a horrible racist person with a "punchable face".

Even after the full story came out, many people - some on ISF - still think that the treatment Sandmann received was justified and acceptable because he was wearing a MAGA hat. Think about that for a moment. Even after having been definitively shown that the initial reporting was false and plain wrong... some people still think he deserved to receive death threats and to be expelled because of his political persuasion.

Now here's the challenging part of this. What if the tables turn? What if, 10 years from now, it's not conservatism that is viewed as evil and unacceptable, but liberalism? What if it is your own political beliefs that are painted as socially unacceptable and justifying retaliatory measures such as Sandmann faced?

Is there any objective reason that would prevent that from happening? Or is it nothing more than your deeply held belief that your views are morally right?

The anti-communists believed that their views were morally right, and that justified their abuse of communists in the US. The anti-trumpers believed (still believe) that their views are morally right, and that justifies the abuse of Nick Sandmann. In the future, there's no guarantee that it will not be the anti-liberals who believe their views are morally right, and that justifies their abuse of you.

those are the dangers inherent in the principles espoused to rationalize "cancel culture". That it's not new is irrelevant. It wasn't new when it was witch burnings, it wasn't new when it was the crusades and the inquisition, and it wasn't new when it was McCarthyism.

It's not new, but it is dangerous.

This is a very thoughtful post and I appreciate the time you took to compose it.

A few criticisms:

1) The entire first section is premised on the notion that the groups behind boycotts and bans are some unstoppable force before which businesses must prostrate themselves and obey. They are not. Boycotts, bans, and calls to fire people are routinely ignored by businesses. Even taking the most recent example of Gina Carano, the calls for Disney to fire her have been going on for a year or more. Disney ignored them. In the end, it was her own behavior that ended up losing her the job. The myth that the whims of the “mob” have absolute power over corporate policy is silly and easily disproven by numerous real-world examples.

2) You’re concerned with free speech and yet you seem to want to curtail the free speech rights of people who wish to exercise it calling for boycotts of which you personally disapprove. Critics of “cancel culture” never seem to be able to account for this contradiction.

3) Sandmann is not a particularly good example because that situation was adjudicated in his favor. He was wronged and he was compensated. Justice prevailed and if anything, it’s an example of the system working.

4) The Red Scare continues to be a terrible comparison to anything labeled “cancel culture” today. We don’t have a government body investigating people. We don’t have people being being blacklisted based on suspicion and paranoia. What we have are people facing consequences for their public behavior and a disagreement over whether those consequences are warranted. The difference between the two is big enough to be measured in light years.

Most of all, what I see in your post is what we’ve been getting from “cancel culture” critics from the beginning: Hand-wringing and “But what if?” slippery-slopism over nebulous “dangers”.

It remains uncompelling argumentation.
 
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